Glenda L Heywood
02-20-2009, 04:02 PM
Chicks Dieing
Nathalie Ross
I was told that these folks had incubators of
styrofoam and now a large emu incubator converted they
were using. Then they were getting some chicks hatched
but when they live 24 to 48 hrs they gasp and die.
They fed boiled egg yolks and medicated chick starter.
These were from NPIP flocks of OE
Here is my answer on what I do, may help some of
you out there.
Nathalie's Answer
Hey there. I went through this very same problem
myself, and it almost drove me crazy. Thankfully, I
did alot of research and found a solution that worked
for me, so maybe it will work for you. This is a long
post. You might want to print it out so that you can
read it once for the "why's " of my recommendation,
but then just highlight the "how's" so it's not as
complicated.
First, I had the same thing: hens that were laying,
OE's, but when the eggs DID make it to full term, the
babies were disinterested in eating,
or died during hatch. The ones that did make it
didn't live very long.
If you lost eggs during hatch, you'll want to candle
and find out exactly when they're dying out. If it's
near day 14, I'm thinking your situation is exactly
was mine was. Then of course, don't move the eggs
after day 18. Humidity monitoring is going to be very
important, too.
Bill Worrell's method of Dry Incubation (called Dry
Hatching, but it's really not) helped me with chicks
sticking, chicks drowning, etc.
But then I had babies that wouldn't make it past day
14 incubation, or past day 2 after hatch. What I finally found that made all the
difference was a nutritional program concentrating on
making sure that when the hens did lay, the yolks were crammed with nutrition to help the chicks
make it past day 14, to hatch, and then to point of
lay.
First, I would put these birds on either an all
breeder or all layer pellet. I like grains for conditioning birds for show, but there needs
to be a certain type of vitamin-mineral content to
feed to make those nutrients go into the yolks and grains dilute that magic formula.
My breeding nutrition was devised from a combination of the breeding program of a top OE breeder and some of my own additions to make up for my own weak (purchased) strains.
I can't recall - what state are you in? If you have
access to Bluebonnet or CalfManna laying pellets, that will be a good bet for you.
Pellets retain their nutritinal integrity better than
crumbles because there is less surface exposure to air. If you can find either feed, I can tell you why they're great ones.
If not, then try to find a good breeder or pelleted feed that has a quick turnover at the feedstore, again for nutritional integrity. If you have to resort to a combination of game (non med) breeder and laying pellets, that will work too, although the
breeder that I'm referencing only used 16% regular
laying pellets with a certain form of supplementation that I, too, used hat I'll describe below.
I personally used a combination of Bluebonnet game
breeder and Bluebonnet laying pellets to pull out my slump, in ombination with the aforementioned supplementation program.
Then, try giving probiotics once a week to your
breeders about one month before laying through your last collection of eggs. Probiotics cause
the birds to have more beneficial bacteria in their
gut, ensuring that they'll absorb more feed more effeciently. That means that more nutrients go into the bird, and thus into the egg, and into fertility
ability. The good bacteria also produce B vitamins,
important to various functions that will help your hens be better producers as well as breeders.
Now, the trick is to use boosters of the oil soluable
vitamins as a supplement to the feed. Oil soluable vitamins (A, D, ) are usually the first ones to disappear from feeds because of the processing of feeds.
Unfortunately, to avian species, they're also some of
the most important. D plays an important role in the strength of eggshells (thus the resistance to bacterial infection of the fetal chick),
A plays a vital role to the overall health of birds, and E is important to breeding and immunity. The way to best do this is by using cod liver oil alternating
with wheat germ oil. I personally used just the wheat
germ oil in a certain way and had great results.
Twice a week, use 6 ounces of wheat germ oil to a
regular bucket of feed, or 1 full cup to one 5 gallon bucket. When you add the oil, add
some at a time, stir very vigorously til the pellets
are just slightly more shiny than before (if you don't want to measure, which I sure didn't).
Then do the next layer of oil. You'll want to make this batch fresh, and only in a quantity that will be eaten that day because oils go rancid quickly and loose potency. Also, you'll want to look into ground
seaweed (kelp). Bill Worrell of Briarpatch Farms
sells a good quality of the correct stuff (Northern Atlantic kelp, the only kind to use because of its quality and lower iodine content) for a good price.
It doesn't take much, really. I top dressed the oiled feed with the kelp so it didn't fall through to the bottom. One palmful will take care of a 5
gallon bucket generously. Kelp adds micronutrients to
the feed that are missing from the grains, etc, used to make the feed. The birds' bodies need these to make good strong babies.
Now, note - you're feeding your birds to make good
healthy birds, show type birds, but they need more to be baby makers. It's no fault of yours that you haven't done this til now, really it's the fault of feed producers.
Starting babies:
First, you'll find that when you have more correct
nutrition with your breeders, you'll have stronger hatches and none of the helping-out
needed. I was Queen of the Helper Outters until I
changed my nutritional program, then the same birds were producing babies that kicked out of
the eggs and looked for their first meals. I know
that's what you want to see, too.
Additionally, you can use kelp from day one with
babies to give them a good strong boost. I just mixed a pinch of kelp in with one chick-feeder of starter, and sprinkled kelp and crumbles for the one day olds.
If I have a weak chick, I'll wet crumbles and mix in a
generous portion of kelp til the crumbles are just more fluffy and soft but not wet.
(Sprinkling water on top does this). This would help
the very tiny OE chicks to actually swallow the crumbles because they're not so hard, and
they can more easily grip then too. That will get
them eating before day 3, when their absorbed yolk nutrition starts to un out and they start to get weak and "die out".
Also, be sure that their brooder temps are 100%
correct. Chilled OE babies won't eat, they'll just run around and worry and starve. The same
with over hot babies, so keep that brooder at 95
degrees with a cooler spot that they can go to if they need to. I found any variation from
this with the weaker babies caused serious problems.
When you start babies like this, from hen to hatch to
day 4, you'll find you won't have the problems with babies dying. You'll also want to keep them separated from all adults for a good while.
Opinion varies on how long, but I say at least 4 months. I always do my babies first, then my adults, so that the babies don't pick up something that the
adults can handle (but the babies can't) from my
hands.
I think your problem was more due to weak chicks. Chicks that you have to help out rarely make it. If they do, they usually die just when you've got them half way raised up.
Of course, I'm a proponent of absolutely 100% clean
water. The only thing I put in my water is sometimes apple cider vinegar to keep skum out
of the sides, and keep bacteria from growing in there.
Vitamins break down easily in water and leave a soup in which bacteria thrive. Exotic avian breeders have known this for years, but chicken breeders won't
listen.
The vitamin formulas are really the same,
too, so I'm going with what the people with the multi-thousand dollar birds do on this one.
That's where alot of my research has come from in the
first place, then practiced on my own poultry and backed up with extension and other
poultry-related research.
OK, give that a thought, and let me hear what you
think. If you're interested, we can talk more about this, but I think this will get you started. Nathalie
Nathalie Ross
I was told that these folks had incubators of
styrofoam and now a large emu incubator converted they
were using. Then they were getting some chicks hatched
but when they live 24 to 48 hrs they gasp and die.
They fed boiled egg yolks and medicated chick starter.
These were from NPIP flocks of OE
Here is my answer on what I do, may help some of
you out there.
Nathalie's Answer
Hey there. I went through this very same problem
myself, and it almost drove me crazy. Thankfully, I
did alot of research and found a solution that worked
for me, so maybe it will work for you. This is a long
post. You might want to print it out so that you can
read it once for the "why's " of my recommendation,
but then just highlight the "how's" so it's not as
complicated.
First, I had the same thing: hens that were laying,
OE's, but when the eggs DID make it to full term, the
babies were disinterested in eating,
or died during hatch. The ones that did make it
didn't live very long.
If you lost eggs during hatch, you'll want to candle
and find out exactly when they're dying out. If it's
near day 14, I'm thinking your situation is exactly
was mine was. Then of course, don't move the eggs
after day 18. Humidity monitoring is going to be very
important, too.
Bill Worrell's method of Dry Incubation (called Dry
Hatching, but it's really not) helped me with chicks
sticking, chicks drowning, etc.
But then I had babies that wouldn't make it past day
14 incubation, or past day 2 after hatch. What I finally found that made all the
difference was a nutritional program concentrating on
making sure that when the hens did lay, the yolks were crammed with nutrition to help the chicks
make it past day 14, to hatch, and then to point of
lay.
First, I would put these birds on either an all
breeder or all layer pellet. I like grains for conditioning birds for show, but there needs
to be a certain type of vitamin-mineral content to
feed to make those nutrients go into the yolks and grains dilute that magic formula.
My breeding nutrition was devised from a combination of the breeding program of a top OE breeder and some of my own additions to make up for my own weak (purchased) strains.
I can't recall - what state are you in? If you have
access to Bluebonnet or CalfManna laying pellets, that will be a good bet for you.
Pellets retain their nutritinal integrity better than
crumbles because there is less surface exposure to air. If you can find either feed, I can tell you why they're great ones.
If not, then try to find a good breeder or pelleted feed that has a quick turnover at the feedstore, again for nutritional integrity. If you have to resort to a combination of game (non med) breeder and laying pellets, that will work too, although the
breeder that I'm referencing only used 16% regular
laying pellets with a certain form of supplementation that I, too, used hat I'll describe below.
I personally used a combination of Bluebonnet game
breeder and Bluebonnet laying pellets to pull out my slump, in ombination with the aforementioned supplementation program.
Then, try giving probiotics once a week to your
breeders about one month before laying through your last collection of eggs. Probiotics cause
the birds to have more beneficial bacteria in their
gut, ensuring that they'll absorb more feed more effeciently. That means that more nutrients go into the bird, and thus into the egg, and into fertility
ability. The good bacteria also produce B vitamins,
important to various functions that will help your hens be better producers as well as breeders.
Now, the trick is to use boosters of the oil soluable
vitamins as a supplement to the feed. Oil soluable vitamins (A, D, ) are usually the first ones to disappear from feeds because of the processing of feeds.
Unfortunately, to avian species, they're also some of
the most important. D plays an important role in the strength of eggshells (thus the resistance to bacterial infection of the fetal chick),
A plays a vital role to the overall health of birds, and E is important to breeding and immunity. The way to best do this is by using cod liver oil alternating
with wheat germ oil. I personally used just the wheat
germ oil in a certain way and had great results.
Twice a week, use 6 ounces of wheat germ oil to a
regular bucket of feed, or 1 full cup to one 5 gallon bucket. When you add the oil, add
some at a time, stir very vigorously til the pellets
are just slightly more shiny than before (if you don't want to measure, which I sure didn't).
Then do the next layer of oil. You'll want to make this batch fresh, and only in a quantity that will be eaten that day because oils go rancid quickly and loose potency. Also, you'll want to look into ground
seaweed (kelp). Bill Worrell of Briarpatch Farms
sells a good quality of the correct stuff (Northern Atlantic kelp, the only kind to use because of its quality and lower iodine content) for a good price.
It doesn't take much, really. I top dressed the oiled feed with the kelp so it didn't fall through to the bottom. One palmful will take care of a 5
gallon bucket generously. Kelp adds micronutrients to
the feed that are missing from the grains, etc, used to make the feed. The birds' bodies need these to make good strong babies.
Now, note - you're feeding your birds to make good
healthy birds, show type birds, but they need more to be baby makers. It's no fault of yours that you haven't done this til now, really it's the fault of feed producers.
Starting babies:
First, you'll find that when you have more correct
nutrition with your breeders, you'll have stronger hatches and none of the helping-out
needed. I was Queen of the Helper Outters until I
changed my nutritional program, then the same birds were producing babies that kicked out of
the eggs and looked for their first meals. I know
that's what you want to see, too.
Additionally, you can use kelp from day one with
babies to give them a good strong boost. I just mixed a pinch of kelp in with one chick-feeder of starter, and sprinkled kelp and crumbles for the one day olds.
If I have a weak chick, I'll wet crumbles and mix in a
generous portion of kelp til the crumbles are just more fluffy and soft but not wet.
(Sprinkling water on top does this). This would help
the very tiny OE chicks to actually swallow the crumbles because they're not so hard, and
they can more easily grip then too. That will get
them eating before day 3, when their absorbed yolk nutrition starts to un out and they start to get weak and "die out".
Also, be sure that their brooder temps are 100%
correct. Chilled OE babies won't eat, they'll just run around and worry and starve. The same
with over hot babies, so keep that brooder at 95
degrees with a cooler spot that they can go to if they need to. I found any variation from
this with the weaker babies caused serious problems.
When you start babies like this, from hen to hatch to
day 4, you'll find you won't have the problems with babies dying. You'll also want to keep them separated from all adults for a good while.
Opinion varies on how long, but I say at least 4 months. I always do my babies first, then my adults, so that the babies don't pick up something that the
adults can handle (but the babies can't) from my
hands.
I think your problem was more due to weak chicks. Chicks that you have to help out rarely make it. If they do, they usually die just when you've got them half way raised up.
Of course, I'm a proponent of absolutely 100% clean
water. The only thing I put in my water is sometimes apple cider vinegar to keep skum out
of the sides, and keep bacteria from growing in there.
Vitamins break down easily in water and leave a soup in which bacteria thrive. Exotic avian breeders have known this for years, but chicken breeders won't
listen.
The vitamin formulas are really the same,
too, so I'm going with what the people with the multi-thousand dollar birds do on this one.
That's where alot of my research has come from in the
first place, then practiced on my own poultry and backed up with extension and other
poultry-related research.
OK, give that a thought, and let me hear what you
think. If you're interested, we can talk more about this, but I think this will get you started. Nathalie