Austalian spotted ducks

[thegildednest]

Anyone have or ever had an australian spotted duck? I'm very interested in them and would like to hear of any experiences had.

[Patrick]

I hear that they're nice setters. Unlike some of the newer Call varieties, they seem to have developed the colors to be easily distinguishable from each other, in both sexes, once you know what you're looking at. In your research, see if you can get anyone to explain to you how they combined 3 distinct species to produce this new breed, as it's promoters claim, when most hybrid ducks between two species are usually sterile.

[goosedragon]

Patrick, So what is your theory of where these ducks came from if you doubt the offered story? I don't know if you believe in Wikipedia or not, but an article there claims that mallards are reported to have been crossed with 63 other species worldwide. Mallards are considered to be a threat to other breeds in Australia and New Zealand so the 'unknown' Australian duck in the mix may be a story or it might be true. Some fertile mallard x pintail crosses have also been reported. The black duck and the Florida duck in the US are considered to be polluted with mallard crosses. What difference does it make if the breed resulted from mutations or crosses as long as they breed true now? ~gd

[Evy]

Maybe Steve will jump in here but, as I recall, the ''Australian Spotted'' duck is neither Australian nor spotted. They were developed a decade or so ago by 3 gentlemen in PA. I can't remember the ''recipe'' but it was a Mallard X ? X ?. There are supposed to be 3 varieties...Blue head, Green head, & I think, Silver (?).

[cchoate]

I raised them for a few years, they are nice ducks. They aren't in the standard so not real popular. If you're looking for backyard pets, they fit the "bill". If you're raising any other ducks of approximate size (calls, Indies, ect..), keep them seperated as they will cross.

[thegildednest]

Yep, I realize they aren't Australian in origin but were created in America in the 1920's.

The existing colors are bluehead, greenhead & silverhead.

The "mix" is supposedly mallard, pintails & calls.

Here's a link to Holderread's page on them: http://www.holderreadfarm.com/photogall ... d_page.htm (http://www.holderreadfarm.com/photogallery/australian_spotted_page/australian_spotted_page.htm)

Thanks cchoate, this is the kind of information I'm looking for. Where did you get yours? Are they personable ducks? From what I've read so far they are supposed to be but I'm more interested in someone's actual experience.

Right now I've got three 6 year old hybrid ducks (golden 300 from Metzer Farms) that have unbelievable personality. They are still laying after 6 years but I'm looking to the future for when they need to be replaced. Next time I'd like to go with bantams since these girls weigh about 6 pounds!

[Evy]

Holderreads may still have them. They aren't as ''talkative'' as some Calls can be & are about the size of a wild Mallard, (which is smaller than the ones you buy from a hatchery). You won't get the number of eggs that a Pekin or KC provides but they're great broodies. Several of us had them for that purpose a few years ago. They are very attractive ducks.

[thegildednest]

Evy, How would you say they compare to mandarins in temperment and personality? I haven't found alot of this type of information on mandarins but I'm still interested in them as well. I wouldn't mix the two breeds, but would pick one of them.

[goosedragon]

I would say that they were very nice ducks I have had about 8 breeds of ducks over the years and to me the Oz spots were the nicest, they didn't spook easily like some of the ducks. I think they must have been bred in Texas because they would not take any crap from any of the other birds, they wouldn't pick fights but they usually got their way. My big African Gander would jump in the pool and try to chase them out. they would stage air attacks until he got sick of it and left. Eventually he learned to share the pool with them.... The nests they made were too small to interest the other ducks. I had some concerns about brooding them with full sized ducklings but they were tough and vigorous right out of the egg. I never had mandarins so I can't make a comparision. I hope this what you were looking for.
Evy, my ducks (not drakes) had spots or at least flecks (they weren't round) on the backs and other places, the green heads had dark brown while the blues had a bluish grey, I didn't have any silvers. ~gd

[cchoate]

Being domestic, A.S. are very personable. Much like calls, Appleyards, ect.. they don't mind people. Being wild, Mandarins & Woodducks won't let you you near them and need to be kept in an enclosed pen 24/7.
I purchased my A.S. from Holdereads and a few others from Daphne Mays but she no longer keeps them.

[thegildednest]

goosedragon, that is exactly what I wanted to know. How they interact with others (even though I won't have them mixed with other breeds) is very interesting. Staging air attacks, very funny :lol:

cchoate, I suspected mandarins were a somewhat aloof bird mainly because I couldn't find anything (over the last 2 years) that really mentioned personality or temperment. While I think they are beautiful, for me I need to have ducks with some serious personality. I enjoy them much more that way and everyone's happy.

Ok, so I'm now convinced it's going to be Australian Spotted Greenheads for me (eventually). I'd still love to hear of others experiences with this bird. I'm thinking the best way would be to buy adult birds (a trio maybe?) and I'll probably get them from Holderreads unless I can find a breeder in New England (unlikely). Hmm, maybe I won't wait for my other ducks demise, I'm sure I can dig out some space for these little beauties somewhere :wink:

[Patrick]

Patrick, So what is your theory of where these ducks came from if you doubt the offered story? I don't have one. I am suspicious of the story, for several reasons. I don't know if you believe in Wikipedia or not, but an article there claims that mallards are reported to have been crossed with 63 other species worldwide. I wouldn't argue that. How many of those 63 different hybrids go on to successfully reproduce without difficulty? Mallards are considered to be a threat to other breeds in Australia and New Zealand True, and elsewhere so the 'unknown' Australian duck in the mix may be a story or it might be true. Well now, you could say that for just about any statement you wish to make, couldn't you? But which IS the truth? Some fertile mallard x pintail crosses have also been reported. The black duck and the Florida duck in the US are considered to be polluted with mallard crosses. Both true, but not without difficulty, such as there being some sort of sex-linked lethal component to the black duck/mallard cross, for example. What difference does it make if the breed resulted from mutations or crosses as long as they breed true now? ~gd It makes little difference, unless you value truth in advertising and breed promotion and history. Despite the fact that some mallard crosses produce fertile offspring, it is still uncommon. Those that are fertile usually have some defect which makes sustained reproduction difficult or unlikely. Throw a third species into the mix, and the chances are even greater that they won't be able to reproduce. Especially one from Australia, where most of the species are not as closely related to the mallard as many in North America. Everyone whom I've ever spoken to who has bred the Australian Spotted, has commented on their good to excellent fertility. We have several pure mallard derived breeds which can't even claim that. Like that other new breed who's origins I'm suspicious of, I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that it's unlikely. Adding a fantastic story which grabs people's attention is a great way to promote a breed. When the hatcheries and the organizations who stand to profit off of the popularity of the breed are the main proponents of the story, I'm a little bit skeptical. Like before, all I'm asking for is a little bit of proof or documentation to back up what seems to me to be unlikely claims. Some kind of DNA analysis, some long lost notes that are authenticated, or even claimed to be from John Kriner, outlining his crosses. Something to give even a hint that the story might have some validity. Otherwise, if I believed every story that someone told about poultry breeds, I'd still think that Naked Necks are a chicken/turkey hybrid, "Araucanas" lay every color egg under the sun, Guineas will completely rid my yard of ticks, and geese will rid my garden of every last weed, while leaving the vegetables for me.

[goosedragon]

Patrick, I see, you have no theory for this breed (are you sure they aren’t poorly marked Mallards? :lol: ) At least you had a theory for that other breed that you don’t believe in.
From Wikipedia again “Mallards frequently interbreed with their closest relatives in the genus Anas, such as the American Black Duck, and also with species more distantly related, for example the Northern Pintail, leading to various hybrids that may be fully fertile. This is quite unusual among different species, and apparently has its reasons in the fact that the Mallard evolved very rapidly and not too long ago, during the Late Pleistocene only.” Patrick: “Both true, but not without difficulty, such as there being some sort of sex-linked lethal component to the black duck/mallard cross, for example.” Yes this does follow Haldane’s Rule (look it up).
What is your source for this claim? “Especially one from Australia, where most of the species are not as closely related to the mallard as many in North America.” You aren’t the only one allowed to be suspicious.
As for the pure mallard derived domestics with reduced fertility that is a direct result of man’s breeding programs for the domestics. If you keep breeding for small (Calls) or Large (big meat birds) the fertility is going to decrease. If you breed for egg production, mothering behavior is going to fall off. I will not even start on the results of inbreeding since they are pretty well known.
Is there any non-Standard breed that you approve of? Or is just those sold and promoted by the 'God of the West'? Do you doubt that RIR were a product of RI rather than your NH? Do you believe all the histories published in the SOP?
BTW turkeys, ducks and chickens will also reduce ticks in your yard if you let them free range; nothing short of a new Ice Age will completely rid you of them :( . Yes weeder geese were considered to be very helpful in weed control before the age of Round-up or ‘guest workers’ with short handled hoes, you just had to know how to manage them and their limitations. ~gd

[Patrick]

Well, I don't have a theory for what exactly it is that people are seeing who report that they've seen the Sasquatch, but I'm fairly certain that it doesn't exist. I don't see how not having an alternative theory makes my disbelief any less valid.
It's well known among those who have even a minor interest in wildlife of the world, that Australaia in general has a greater number of species which are less closely related to similar animals in other parts of the world, due to the continent's long period of isolation from the others. It's not a particularly rich country in terms of waterfowl species, and although it does have a few in the same genus as mallards, most of it's ducks are more distantly related. Alas, this isn't just my own groundbreaking theory, it's well documented in various places under the individual species accounts. North America on the other hand, has well over a dozen species in the same genus as mallards. To put it back into context, the chances are much greater that the Spots could have come from a mallard X other North American Anas, than from some mysterious Australian noname. Add to that the fact that very few of the native Australian ducks are found in captive collections in NA, again makes the chances less likely of it being something so exotic. Granted, that may have been different in the 30's, but I wonder how a species that could cross with a mallard and a pintail and go on to produce offspring with exceptional fertility, was not itself viable enough to remain as a commonly kept species here today?Is there any non-Standard breed that you approve of? Or is just those sold and promoted by the 'God of the West'?
That's what really damages your credibility, your assumptions. Those who know me know that I do play around with a lot of nonstandard breeds and varieties, often to my friends' chagrin, wondering why I devote my resources to those breeds and varieties which cannot be exhibited, which are sometimes difficult or frustrating to work with. Of 4 varieties of geese which I currently keep, two are nonstandard. Out of six varieties of ducks, half are nonstandard. One of my standard lines throws an occasional individual of a nonstandard which I have also been tempted to work with. I have always liked the new and unusual. You seem to have conveniently forgotten that I have stated several times that I like your "Ancona" ducks. I think that it's high time that we had a broken variety of any breed or species in the standard. I dislike the name, it has no relevance to the Ancona chicken, and I really dislike the sensational, unproven claims, especially when the breed can be recreated easily, in a few generations, at least phenotypically, by a few simple, common crosses using existing breeds and varieties. I'm not just an armchair critic. I enjoy breed histories, especially of those which I'm interested in. I have looked long and hard for any evidence to support the claims that the Ancona existed in England at around the time it is said. I have talked to or emailed several British breeders, judges, waterfowl and poultry society leaders, and a respected author and breed historian. Not only has not a single one ever seen one in person or known of anyone claiming to breed them, not one has ever heard mention of that breed in anything they've ever read, anywhere over there, before it was claimed here. My opinion is similar toward your Australian Spots. I wasn't too fond of them at first, but now that I know a little bit more about them and have been able to observe quite a few in person, they are growing on me. Again, I dislike what seems to be a fantastic story about their development, which defies some of what we know about breeding ducks. I do admire some of the many new varieties of Calls, but dislike that many of the breeders don't even take the time to agree on the proper or at least consistent terminology for the names. There are as many as four differnt names for the same variety, coined by people who don't even know what it is they're working with, and who don't take the time to learn. One of my nonstandard varieties was actually claimed to have been developed by your mentor. I have no reason to doubt that. The story fits, no sensationalism, no mysteries, he's well known for his work with the breed in recognized varieties, and the new one is the result of a simple cross, the other component also known to be bred by him.

Let's talk about the Dutch Hookbill duck, also bred by your guy. If you haven't already, you'll find that it does have a documented history, going back at least to the 1600's. Several Dutch poultry historians have uncovered information on it. It has been depicted in at least a few early paintings. None other than Darwin himself worked with and documented them, yet they were unknown in this country until being brought in by the one you adore. Now he breeds and sells them, along with the other two breeds. It seems to me that he promotes the other two strongly, but the Hookbills almost not at all. Certainly, the ALBC, with similar admiration of him, and much of it is justified, took the stories at face value. They even quickly recognized the breeds, and promote the same fantastic stories, themselves offering no other documentation of the history. What really boggles my mind, is how a group who claims to be all about breed preservation, especially critically endangered breeds, can ignore centuries of historical, factual documentation, and accept stories which at least raise some questions, without so much as looking into them, or even qualifying them. I do not believe everything that the APA has written, but at least they have the sensibility to quailfy most of their breed histories with statements outlining the obscurity of the history when it is not able to be proven. Much of their breed histories can in fact be proven, or at least are documented, and the importation traced, often by way of Great Britain, The Netherlands, or Germany. Many of the varieties which were created in this country are also documented. Guess what? Most crosses, most breeds or varieties which went into the makeup are listed. No mysteries, no cliff hangers leading us to wonder at what exotic species was used.

This seeming breed discrimination I do have a theory about. Of course I don't know for sure. ALBC may be able to answer that if they are willing, but I'm guessing that it surrounds the productivity of the breeds in question. Your two favorite breeds seem to be very productive. Good layers. They hatch well. I don't think that there are many who doubt that. The Hookbills, while being very good layers, do not hatch easily. Some claim that naturally incubated eggs do. I don't know if it's true, but even so, that would not be conducive to producing large numbers to fill a demand. Therefore, IMO, they are brushed aside and not promoted. What sense is there in creating a demand for an unusual rare breed for which you cannot sell? I submit, that if ALBC was truly impartial and concerned about nothing other than rare breed promotion, the Dutch Hookbill would have made their list as soon as they were established in this country. IMO, as a way of paying their dues in your mutual admiration society, ALBC recognizes what breeds the one who can sell many of, wants them to recognize, and ignores the other for fear of creating a demand which cannot currently be filled. I think that you know that there are a lot of people who swallow hook, line and sinker, the perception that a breed is somehow more valuable or at least desireable, simply because it appears on "The List". There are other examples of breeds which apper on the list which also have questionable histories, but which have a catchy story, and there are more than a few which many people believe are not in danger at all, which are bred in many more thousands or possibly hundreds of thousands than the Dutch Hookbill. A few breeds seem to have materialized out of thin air, or at least are now recognized based mainly on oral tradition or local lore, getting pushed through and listed very shortly after being discovered or rediscovered, with nowhere near the documented evidence of both their heritage status or their rarity.

[thegildednest]

Here's a link that talks a little about the "sterile" aspect of breeding mallard/pintails specifically. Don't mean to add fuel to the above fire but I'm just saying... :?

http://www.avianweb.com/australianspottedducks.html

[goosedragon]

Well as always, I find your book interesting. I do wish you didn't need to address me like a slow teenager. It seems that the only way you write is to write down to people. I have some more choice terms for your style but I have resolved to try to avoid being rude and use more gentle tones this year :(
I find the three breeds mentioned to be very nice birds as I have owned all three. on the other hand I can't work up any interest in the Silky duck after seeing pictures.
As for non-standards. I was really asking about how you feel about them. From your posts I had formed the assumption (evidently false) that you didn't feel anything not Standard was worth anybodies effort. I don't know you, all I can go by is your posts here. Frankly I fail to see how that damages my credibility. I think I have asked you the same question in different words on at least two prior occasions, as I recall you failed to answer, just ignored the question as you often do with my posts, too intent to score points in other wordage. Frankly I don't remember you ever saying anything good about "Ancona" ducks but I admit that could be selective memory on my part :oops: (yes I hate the name too, but I don't want to be made fun of by people like you and "Turkens". Might I suggest that searching England for them is a waste of time. The one 'broken' pattern duck in Europe seems to be in France and Dutch. Just a suggestion.
About ALBC (first I want to say that I broke with them shortly after joining, I live about 10 miles from their headquarters, when I tried to assist, I was patted on the head and told not to bother them anymore) Agreed they do a bad job with their surveys in poultry they don't have enough sense to get a APA year book and contact the actual breeders. Waterfowl it appears they only talk to Dave H, I don't know if others have tried to advise, maybe they got patted on the head like I did. Sorry but Dave H is generally considered to be the current popular authority on waterfowl. Sorry but huge long answers aren't anything I am really good at.
Have a nice weekend Patrick. ~gd

[thegildednest]

I'm thinking of getting a trio of greenheads. Is there a general preference between a trio or a pair? I know a one to one ratio with chickens isn't always the best choice but then again I guess it depends on the rooster too. My experience with ducks is just that - all 3 are ducks, no drakes in the group.

[goosedragon]

I have been told that in waterfowl a trio usually means two ducks and one Drake. I would suggest that would be better than a pair because the drakes are quite 'vigorous'. Six ducks would make him happier :oops: If you really mean to have just three hens that is of course your choice..~gd

[Clint]

I'm really curious about some of the comments.

Patrick, what is your source for lethals in mallardxAmerican black duck crosses? I have never seen any reference for that, so I'm curious.

As for mallardx northern pintails crosses..where does the idea their not fertile come from? Paul Johnsgard did alot of actual research on mallardxpin crosses in the 60's and their totally fertile. F2's show a range of morphological appearance from very pintail-like to very mallard-like. Same with behavioural responses, see the paper below.

Clint

Sharpe, R. S.; Johnsgard, P. A. 1966.Inheritance of behavioral characteristics in F2 mallard x pintail (Anas platyrhynchos L. x Anas acuta L.) hybrids. Behaviour, 27: pp. 259-272

[Patrick]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_black_duck

That's what I was referring to. Don't know the specifics, hence my reference to "some sort of lethal".

So what's your opinion? Possible? Probable for a 3 way species hybrid to occur and be as fertile as any pure species?

[Clint]

I went and read the Kirby article. Part of the reason I'm not a Wikapedia fan. Ron left some stuff out of the original article I think is important. He only reported sex ratios at hatch (secondary sex ratio). Males were 65% of the ducklings in several studies comprising 34 clutches. It appears that all the eggs were artificially incubated from start of incubation. There was no measure of egg failure or primary sex ratio. In my experience, artificially incubated clutches often are drake heavy, I've always assumed that the unhatched eggs were probably hens, although I've nerv looked. The other thing I've noticed in my wood ducks is that the first clutches are often male heavy, the re-nests female heavy. I don't have any real data to prove it, but I would suggest that storage temp prior to incubation may affect survivability or sex ration. Reports surface on temp-dependent sex-ratios in birds, and they are quickly countered with others saying it's not possible. Speaking with genetic researchers, they're not as quick to discount the reports as others, so I don't know what to believe. Back to Ron's paper, he reports male sex ratios of F2's, regardless of being F1xF1 of a backcross as less than 50%.

A 3 way cross..... in my opinion, it's possible. One has to remember that waterfowl, and birds in general, stretch the definition of species when compared with mammals. I don't know enough about Australian spotted to have a real opinion, although I seriously doubt the story. I'm not certain WHY anyone would cross a hybrid (mallardxpin) with anything else.

Clint

[thegildednest]

I have been told that in waterfowl a trio usually means two ducks and one Drake. I would suggest that would be better than a pair because the drakes are quite 'vigorous'. Six ducks would make him happier :oops: If you really mean to have just three hens that is of course your choice..~gd

Hmmm, maybe I'll get three ducks for the drake instead of two. I need to find out when they ship adult birds and decide if I can do it this year or will have to wait until next year. I've got lots of renovations to the existing duck structure to do to accomodate a separate area for bantam ducks so I don't know if there will be enough time. Anyway, thx for the response gd.

[goosedragon]

Most will not ship adult waterfowl in warm or hot weather, they generally tolerate cold better than hot. Don't quote me on this but I seem to remember that 80 F is a upper limit. I don't know if this is a Post Office Rule, the rule of some airlines that actually do the hauling or just a rule of thumb used by some shippers, and just to make things more uncertain I'm not sure about the 80 number either.
You probably won't have to wait until next year since most adults move in the fall season. This spring's hatch that are developed enough that their potential can be estimated, that the breeder doesn't want the expense of carrying over the winter.
Don't forget in your planning that these small ducks fly very well unless wings are clipped. When you raise them from ducklings your place is 'home' to them which is not true with shipped in adults. ~gd

[thegildednest]

After I posted my last reply, I found the page on shipping on Holderread's website (didn't see it before) and they ship adults October through February so I should be able to get them this fall. My main reason for getting adults instead of ducklings is I didn't want to have to find homes for the other 6 (minimum 10 ducklings order). There isn't much of a price difference for 4 adults or 10 ducklings and it just seemed the smarter thing to do.

I plan to have their entire yard netted. I measured the new area yesterday and it's approx 30' x 30' which gives each of the four 225 sq feet per which seems like plenty of space. There will be a "treed" area (cut short so I can put netting over the top) and lots of open space which I will eventually fill with "structures" to be hidden under or sat upon etc.

[thegildednest]

Ok, in communicating with Holderreads, I found out they don't sex out extra females. Only sell adult/young juveniles as pairs. So my plan of getting more than one female for the male is in the toilet :? . My next question is for those of you with experience with this breed, would getting two pairs cause a problem with the males? I know with roosters it can be a problem but what about this breed?

[Evy]

Ok, in communicating with Holderreads, I found out they don't sex out extra females. Only sell adult/young juveniles as pairs. So my plan of getting more than one female for the male is in the toilet :? . My next question is for those of you with experience with this breed, would getting two pairs cause a problem with the males? I know with roosters it can be a problem but what about this breed?
They aren't apt to draw blood like chickens, but it can be rough on the females. Are you getting both pr. alike ? If not, you'll have crossed up colors unless they're penned separately during breeding season.

[thegildednest]

In your opinion Evy, do you feel one male to one female is too much for the female? I'm frustrated because I really wanted to get 3 ducks for the one drake but it can't be done at Holderread's. :(

As far as getting two pairs goes, I was thinking with the yard space they'll have (132 sq foot per duck) available to them and the house space (10.5 sq ft per duck) that hopefully it would be enough space for the females to get away when they want some peace. Is that not a reasonable expectation?

I was also thinking if I got two different pairs of greenheads and blueheads I could have a mix of all three colors since according to Dave Holderread's book pg 113 under "Breeding Hints":

1. Greenhead x Greenhead produces all greenhead offspring
2. Greenhead x Bluehead produces half greenehads and half bluehead
3. Greenhead x Silverhead produces all blueheads
4. Bluehead x Bluehead produces all three colors in a ration of 1 green, 2 blue and 1 silver
5. Bluehead x Silverhead produces half blueheads and half silverheads
6. Silverhead x Silverhead produces all silverheads

I'm thinking I could easily pen whichever two I want to breed when I decide to pick a particular color from the above 6 choices.

Are these assumptions unrealistic? If you think yes, then I'll probably just stick with getting one pair of greenheads :(

[goosedragon]

Have you ever tried to catch the little buggers? :lol: Remember too that they fly very well unless you trim some feathers. ~gd

[thegildednest]

:lol: No I haven't tried to catch any before. The three ducks I have are fat little things and they are easily guided with hands to go where I want them to go. They really don't fly. I do have a BIG net that I'm sure will come in handy.

gd~ what do you think about having two pairs? Will there be a lot of squabbling among the males or will it be harmonious?

I guess I'll have to wait and see if I decide to trim wings or not. Their yard will be covered.

[goosedragon]

:lol: No I haven't tried to catch any before. The three ducks I have are fat little things and they are easily guided with hands to go where I want them to go. They really don't fly. I do have a BIG net that I'm sure will come in handy.

gd~ what do you think about having two pairs? Will there be a lot of squabbling among the males or will it be harmonious?

I guess I'll have to wait and see if I decide to trim wings or not. Their yard will be covered.
In the normal order of things there will be fighting untill it is established which drake is dominate. If the loser can live being submissive, at that point the fighting will end and the bullying begins. For breeding you will have "a trio with a spare" as the dominate drake will mate both ducks and the spare drake tries to catch a little action and hopes that a fox takes the domininate drake so he can have the ducks. Sorry if I sound flip, but I think this is accurate. I would think there is little chance that it will be harmonious.~gd

[thegildednest]

~gd I gotta tell ya, you always make me laugh!

Ok, I'm convinced it won't be harmonius so now I'm thinking I'll just get one pair and see how that goes. Once they have their own flock of ducklings I can probably keep more of those females. Hmmm, that just made me think about breeding father to daughters - probably not a good idea huh? Jeez! There's always some new thought that pops into my head and interferes with the decision I "think" I've made! :evil:

[Evy]

~gd I gotta tell ya, you always make me laugh!

Ok, I'm convinced it won't be harmonius so now I'm thinking I'll just get one pair and see how that goes. Once they have their own flock of ducklings I can probably keep more of those females. Hmmm, that just made me think about breeding father to daughters - probably not a good idea huh? Jeez! There's always some new thought that pops into my head and interferes with the decision I "think" I've made! :evil:

Father x daughter , mother x son crosses are called ''line breeding'' & is done all the time. Sibling crosses are not as desirable. You're still going to have to limit the number of drakes you keep.

[goosedragon]

~gd I gotta tell ya, you always make me laugh!

Ok, I'm convinced it won't be harmonius so now I'm thinking I'll just get one pair and see how that goes. Once they have their own flock of ducklings I can probably keep more of those females. Hmmm, that just made me think about breeding father to daughters - probably not a good idea huh? Jeez! There's always some new thought that pops into my head and interferes with the decision I "think" I've made! :evil: I am not trying to mess with your mind, but here is another option: Get the 2 pair you had in mind, put up with the establishment of the normal pecking order in your mini-Flock. In the late winter set up two breeding pens with a duck and drake in each. With any luck you will have two breeding lines (keep records) and you will be able to mate birds from line1 to birds in the other line2 which will have no releationship to each other. With any luck you can have a fairly large flock before you have to worry about inbreeding. BTW I think if you get some truly great bird you might want to look into "line breeding" which is a form of inbreeding meant to conserve the good genes from the great bird. Ask some of the professional breeders about this because I don't really understand it myself.

[thegildednest]

Evy & goosedragon,

This is so funny that you both responded with info on line breeding! Right after I posted that message about breeding father to daughter I continued to read Dave's book and found the part about line breeding and it put my mind at ease. So I thought, "Great! I'll go ahead and order both a pair of greenheads and another of blueheads."

Unfortunately, right now the project is somewhat on hold since I have just realized how close to my artesian well this new duck area will be not to mention the 10 little bantam chickens coming in May! (Drats! I already have the deposit check written to Holderread's and the order form filled out but sadly it's just sitting on the kitchen counter)!

I'm awaiting a response from my local board of health and in my mild panic I called a local well driller this morning to ask his opinion. When I stated our 24 year old well is 300 feet down he first said it would probably be fine since we must have had to go through about 100 feet of rock to get to the water THEN he said "on the other hand it's probably best to keep animals 100 feet away from the well just to be safe". So, now I'm slightly stressing, since the big ducks are currently only about 50 feet away from the well and the spots would be about 40 feet away from the well AND the new bantams yard will be right next to the well in the old silkie coop.

Three years ago when I got silkies I did some 'distance from the well' research (at hubby's strong urging). I found an article that stated as long as the well was at least 100 feet DEEP the amount of animals I was getting (5 silkies) wouldn't affect the well water. Unfortunately, I didn't save the website link and can't find it now to see if I remembered it correctly, hence my trying to contact the local board of health (which are very lackadaisical about responding to customers!)

I guess I could just wait until my older ducks are gone and put the spots in their established (disinfected) duck area. As far as housing the new bantams goes, their coop is only 35 feet away from the well and the fenced yard would be about 6 inches from the well. I could probably dismantle the whole thing and move it but the farthest distance I can get from the well is 50 feet! Sigh...

I REALLY want those australian spotteds!!! Plus, the (already paid for) bantams will be shipped mid May so I've got to come up with a workable solution before they arrive.

goosedragon, I really like your suggestion and when (IF) the project is able to go ahead I think I'll do as you suggested. If I enjoy the spots as much as I suspect I will, I would love to breed them to share with others locally.

[goosedragon]

Well,(pun intended)The well on my old place was semi-artesian in the sense that the water would overflow the well casing except when we were in a bad drought. The guy before me used the overflow to water his horses which I sort of worried about. I had the expense of having to replace the pump because the above ground electrical box was struck by lightning. When I had the pump pulled and replaced the guy that did the work said that the drill casing pipe was intact down to about 200 feet where the water level stopped his down the well camera from working. He explained that as long as the casing pipe was intact I had in effect at least the equivalent of a 200 ft filter bed. When I asked why it was so deep he explained that there was a coal seam in the area and they drilled through the seam and used the casing to make sure I got none of that stuff in the water from my deep well. I don't know what yours is but mine was a drilled well with a 6" diameter steel pipe,the pump the electric supply wire and the plastic pipe that actually brought the drinking water to the surface were all suspended from a cable anchored in the cement cap that sealed around the outside of the pipe. I had to have the work inspected by the local health department and they confirmed the story the well man told me.
Yours might be different so check it out when you can. Oh I forgot to mention that part of the house septic systen field was also in the area, the clay soil didn't 'perk' very well and a huge field had to be provided to get rid of the house wastewater. Again aproved and specified by the local health department. ~gd

[thegildednest]

He explained that as long as the casing pipe was intact I had in effect at least the equivalent of a 200 ft filter bed. ~gd

Well, you know this is what my logic was when I thought about the fact that it was THREE HUNDRED FEET DEEP! :lol: I thought 'how can the waste from 10 little bantam chickens plus 3 six pound ducks within a 50 foot distance of my well contaminate it at that depth???'

Our well pipe sticks out of the ground about 6 inches and is about 8-10 wide. Our leach field is about 75-85 feet away from the well at the front of the property. The entire property has a minor grade so water drains away from the hill/house to a low point in the front of the parcel. We've never had problems with water except a few times over the last 2 decades we had some leaks in the front of the house foundation when we had unusually heavy rains. I suspect the leaks were more due to the crack in the foundation than anything else.

I've decided to bring some water to be tested Monday morning. We really should have done it before now but when we built the house we were young and stupid :? and never thought to do it again. So now 23 years later, we're middle aged and a "little" less stupid so we're going to test again. One of the websites I read yesterday said well water should be tested every few years which we are waaaaaaaaay beyond having done. Hopefully, the water will be fine and maybe the people at that office can answer my question/dilemma if I don't hear back from the board of health in a timely manner. I'm still going to contact the board of health again and probably go down to the office on my day off.

Fingers crossed I can still get my spots this fall instead of waiting for the older ducks to kick the bucket. Not that I want them to kick the bucket since their antics are very comedic and I enjoy them thoroughly but I WANT THOSE SPOTS! :)

[goosedragon]

I was lucky, at the time I managed the QC Labs at my Big Pharma plant. Complete Microbiology and Chemical labs at my disposal plus Sterile and chemically clean sample containers! Of course the health department wouldn't accept our results and insisted on sending them out to a rinky-dink Official commercial lab where the fee was way out of line with actual costs. Health officials can be real bullies with all the power they have, it is better to just go with the flow. I hope you get your 'spots' ~gd

[callduckguy]

might anyone happen to have some pics and be able to post them here...
I am interested to see what these look like.

thanks in advance

[thegildednest]

Yahoo! Got a call from my local BOH today and he basically said the same thing you did ~gd. He said since our well is so deep it's like a very deep filter and for what I will have in the area it's not a problem at all so that is a load off my mind! He also said if I had say a hundred chickens right "on top" of the well head I might want to fence 5 feet around and keep them off it but that's about it. So Phew! On with the spots plans!!!

I've decided to temper my excitement and only get one pair of blueheads this October. If all works out and I decide to breed more seriously I will add a pair of greenheads Fall 2010 but I think I will be happy with the blueheads since their offspring are a mix of bluehead, greenhead and silverheads!

callduckguy, here's a link to Holderreads site which has several pictures of the spots (or "aussies" as Dave Holderread calls them). Also if you do a Google image search you will find even more pictures to look at there.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... %26hl%3Den (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.holderreadfarm.com/photogallery/australian_spotted_page/BHAS_Nov906_N55.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.holderreadfarm.com/photogallery/australian_spotted_page/australian_spotted_page.htm&usg=__O6abVVh3phn_9TRzWIG4NpQgESo=&h=404&w=600&sz=81&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=DadGYFyJHbsL9M:&tbnh=91&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbluehead%2Baustralian%2Bspotted%2Bduc ks%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den)

gd~ I'm going to call the water testing company and see if they "sell" sterile containers to collect water in too.

[goosedragon]

Don't be surprised if they offer to give you the sterile containers. They aren't expensive when purchased in bulk. The labs make their money off the testing fees and they think you will feel loyal to them if they give you the containers.~gd

[Gamebird7]

Okay, so is a mallard/magpie cross sterile? She's setting on 16 eggs and if they aren't going to hatch I might be able to foster some eggs to her.

Thanks,

Chad

[Evy]

Okay, so is a mallard/magpie cross sterile? She's setting on 16 eggs and if they aren't going to hatch I might be able to foster some eggs to her.

Thanks,

Chad

Any Mallard derivatives are fertile, which includes all domestic ducks. Even the eggs of Muscovy X domestic are fertile. The offspring from that cross are sterile.

[Gamebird7]

The hen that is setting is a mallard/magpie cross. So i guess those eggs aren't fertile.

[Evy]

The hen that is setting is a mallard/magpie cross. So i guess those eggs aren't fertile.

YES they are...at least they should be. A ''Magpie'' is just a variety ( color ), not a breed. All domestic ducks...Pekins, Runners, Rouens, Magpies, Swedes, Cayugas, Calls, Tufted Whatevers...are derived from ( related to ) Mallards. Even the Australian Spotted, whose ancestory is dubious, are related.
Muscovy are a S. American perching duck & a different species that is capable of breeding with domestics but the offspring are sterile.

[Gamebird7]

OK thanks