Niacin deficiency?

[valsey]

Hi everyone
My ducklings had medicated chick starter for the first 3-4 weeks. They are now on Purina Flock Raiser. One of the ducks is smaller than the rest and just seems to ALWAYS be sitting down. At the water. At the food. In general. She/he's a good swimmer, but doesn't walk much at all. Storey's Guide sort of suggests it could be a niacin deficiency.

So my question is - if I supplement them and they don't need need it, will that be okay? I'm assuming it's a water soluble vitamin and what they don't need, they will excrete. True?

At first it seemed like it was just because they were young and in a small space - but they have about 150 sq ft (for three) and two of the three aren't acting this way. Feel like I need to get on this...

Any other suggestion besides Niacin deficiency?

Thank you!

[Oregon Swedes]

Some of the things that you can feed to your ducks that are good sources of niacin:

rice bran (available at feed stores, sold for horses)
barley
wheat
buckwheat
sunflower seeds
wheat bran
wheat germ
fish

[valsey]

Thanks, Oregon Swedes. I think I read brewers yeast as well

Has anyone here dealt with a niacin deficiency, that can possibly rely their experience?

[goosedragon]

Hi everyone
My ducklings had medicated chick starter for the first 3-4 weeks. They are now on Purina Flock Raiser. One of the ducks is smaller than the rest and just seems to ALWAYS be sitting down. At the water. At the food. In general. She/he's a good swimmer, but doesn't walk much at all. Storey's Guide sort of suggests it could be a niacin deficiency.

So my question is - if I supplement them and they don't need need it, will that be okay? I'm assuming it's a water soluble vitamin and what they don't need, they will excrete. True?

At first it seemed like it was just because they were young and in a small space - but they have about 150 sq ft (for three) and two of the three aren't acting this way. Feel like I need to get on this...

Any other suggestion besides Niacin deficiency?

Thank you!Just don't go overboard and try to give them too much. Yes it is water soluble, I used to put a 100mg tablet in a one gallon waterer and mix to disolve. I just used the waterer as a measure a gallon jug works better amd dump into a container that is suitable for ducks. If they needed more than one waterer the second one would be plain water. Of course it could be lots of things other than Niacin deficiency but waterfowl are known for not using much of the Niacin from grain, it passes through them without being absorved (SP)The chemical Niacin available in drugstores worked well for me. If you have to ask don't be suprized at the looks you get one of the biggest uses is by drugees trying to flush drugs out their system so they can pass the "pee in a cup test" BTW it doesn't work for that.

[Evy]

A protein % of more than 16% may be the problem as well. I don't know what the Flock raiser % is, but too much, too soon ( before adulthood ) can cause leg & wing development issues. The niacin addition can't hurt.

[valsey]

Thanks

Yep - the protein is too high as well - 20%. I need to read up on it more, but I think I recall reading that I can add oats to cut down on protein.

I happen to have niacin in the cabinet and I dissolved 150 mg into a gallon of water - guess I'll keep that up. Also got some nutritional yeast today.

If you think the pharmacist gives you a funny look, ask a feed store person about the niacin percentage in feed - they think you're really nuts.

Personally, I don't care to buy Purina products. Spoke with a Southern States rep today and he said they actually have a feed specifically for Mallards. He sent me some info, but how in the heck do I understand this niacin content ? (below) And again - it's high on the protein

Anyone use this with success? Or can suggest another feed?

SCWA Mallard Duck Conditioner, SKU # 528-08011, is floor stocked at our Flowery Branch, GA feed mill.

Nutrient specification information:

Protein – 20%
Fat – 3.7%
Fiber – 6%
Calcium - .95%
Phosphorus - .75%

Niacin is at .0106%. Not sure what you’re looking for in Niacin % content. I do know usage for ducks in SC and NC is significant on this feed.

THANKS!

[Evy]

I've never had a duck that would eat oats unless they'd sprouted. People that use them, start the birds on them from the beginning.
20% is pretty high unless you're fattening them to butcher. SS used to sell a waterfowl pellet that was around 16%, I think. It had fish meal in it. It was a great all-around feed.

[goosedragon]

Thanks

Yep - the protein is too high as well - 20%. I need to read up on it more, but I think I recall reading that I can add oats to cut down on protein.

I happen to have niacin in the cabinet and I dissolved 150 mg into a gallon of water - guess I'll keep that up. Also got some nutritional yeast today.

If you think the pharmacist gives you a funny look, ask a feed store person about the niacin percentage in feed - they think you're really nuts.

Personally, I don't care to buy Purina products. Spoke with a Southern States rep today and he said they actually have a feed specifically for Mallards. He sent me some info, but how in the heck do I understand this niacin content ? (below) And again - it's high on the protein

Anyone use this with success? Or can suggest another feed?

SCWA Mallard Duck Conditioner, SKU # 528-08011, is floor stocked at our Flowery Branch, GA feed mill.

Nutrient specification information:

Protein – 20%
Fat – 3.7%
Fiber – 6%
Calcium - .95%
Phosphorus - .75%

Niacin is at .0106%. Not sure what you’re looking for in Niacin % content. I do know usage for ducks in SC and NC is significant on this feed.

THANKS!Brian Paul Witt told me about this feed (Mr. Witt was known for his HUGE Muscovy ducks) SCWA stood for SC waterfowl Association which I beleive raised Mallards for private waterfowl shooting. It was my understanding(Truth?) that they provided the oriiginal feed spects and the feed became popular in other places in SC. Please note that this was a conditioner feed, not a starter, layer, breeder, or maintainer feed. It was started after the ducks had their wings feathered and were building their flight muscles. You want birds that can fly well if you are turning them out to shoot. I did NOT say Mr. Witt recommended this feed. I worked with him to develop his own feed rations and he might have used this stuff as an ingredient, Maybe a major ingredient frankly I don't remember and have lost my notes on the project.
I used SS waterfowl pellets as my feed base, they were 20% protein and were considered a complete feed after 2 weeks on a starter feed. My birds got to range for at least two hours and had supplemental grains usually oats available for snow days or times when I couldn't let them range.

[valsey]

I have a feeling finding the right balance is going to be difficult. Going to the feed store today. I know Evy said they may not eat oats, but I can try. Would rolled oats do the trick? Then I could buy a small canister to test it out?

[3dogs]

Feed choices are limited here for waterfowl so I cut the 21.5% protein feed for my geese with dry oatmeal (Quaker or storebrand), hard red winter wheat, and even a little chicken "scratch". They eat it right up.

[Oregon Swedes]

Ducklings up to 2 weeks 20% protein, no 3-nitrophenylarsonic which is sometimes in chick starter and is toxic to ducks

No salt for ducks for the first 3 weeks. After that no more than .25 % salt.

Ducklings after 2 weeks, 17% protein

Ducks need both riboflavin and niacin and may need to have it supplemented.

[goosedragon]

I have a feeling finding the right balance is going to be difficult. Going to the feed store today. I know Evy said they may not eat oats, but I can try. Would rolled oats do the trick? Then I could buy a small canister to test it out?Well I always started my ducks and geese with rolled oats sprinkled on top of the starter feed, the little birds would peck at them because of the different color (I assume) at two weeks I would switch to horse oats. Honestly the ducks were not fond of them but would eat them, the geese loved oats. You could ask your feed store if they have any spilled oats and take a small amount to try them out. My SS feed store served a lot of horsemen and they often had a bag returned because it was "too dusty" for the horses. Infact they used to save these opened bags for me and I would buy them at 50 cents/bag off! the birds would pick the seeds and leave any dust behind. If you go this route always check the opened bags for signs of mold! It was often a problem in my hot moist NC climate. Do not feed moldy feed!

[Oregon Swedes]

Your guys probably aren't big enough, but for adults, I buy them dry COB. That's rolled corn, oats, and barley without molasses. It's sold for horses. The pieces are too big for ducklings.

Locally, chicken scratch is whole wheat and chopped corn. You can also buy a lower % maintenance poultry food and mix the two.

If you go to Metzers site, they have a calculator that tells you how many pounds to mix, starting with different % and ending up with the % of protein you want.

[Speceider]

Your guys probably aren't big enough, but for adults, I buy them dry COB. That's rolled corn, oats, and barley without molasses. It's sold for horses. The pieces are too big for ducklings.

Locally, chicken scratch is whole wheat and chopped corn. You can also buy a lower % maintenance poultry food and mix the two.

If you go to Metzers site, they have a calculator that tells you how many pounds to mix, starting with different % and ending up with the % of protein you want.

That is making the incorrect assumption that food consumption is based upon protein content. All studies I am aware of suggest Metabolisable energy (ME) is what controls food intake. Adding Oats, which has lower ME than may lower protein, but actually increase consumption because the overall ME is reduced. Without knowing the ME of the mixed diet, you are just making guesses. Also, IF the bird selects components of the diet (such as scratch vs pellets), the "average" is meaningless.

Clint

[Oregon Swedes]

That makes a lot of sense, Clint.

The birds should eat until their energy needs are met and then quit eating. It's rare in livestock to have a glutton that will over eat. It happens, but not often.

My opinion is that the blending for protein content is going to work best for food in the same form. Crumbles and crumbles or mash and mash. The birds are going to try to pick out whichever of the foods that they prefer, so no point in making it easier for them.

It would be much better to just buy the right feed, but in my area all I can get is not what I would prefer. Reading on-line, I see a lot of people who are making due with feed that is not what they would purchase if they had other options. The only thing my local feed store carries is an all purpose Poultry, and it is a hair low in protein for adults and slightly too low in many of the nutrients.

I'm hoping that they will have a good chick starter here pretty soon, but then that will be good for the first two weeks and then too high in protein. I won't use up a full bag of starter by the time the ducklings are 2 weeks old, so the rest will get mixed with the all purpose to bring the nutritional content up a bit.

Also, I did a comparison of content and found I can buy the ducks some dry cat food and crush that and use that as a supplement, but only after 3 weeks, because it has salt in it. It's got 30% protein and contains animal and fish proteins, which I think are good for ducks. The all purpose poultry food is all plant protein (what there is of it).

It's nice to have the calculator available to give me a starting place for how much to mix. I put my analysis of the vitamin and mineral contents (compare and contrast) between game bird feed and cheap dry cat food on the poultry forum at Homesteading Today. I figured anyone posting here would already know the information, so y'all don't need it.

I use the COB like I use scratch. I toss out a handful when I call the birds to keep them eager to come when I call them. The barley is a good source of phosphorus.

I am very interested to hear other opinions or facts about feeding.

[goosedragon]

That is making the incorrect assumption that food consumption is based upon protein content. All studies I am aware of suggest Metabolisable energy (ME) is what controls food intake. Adding Oats, which has lower ME than may lower protein, but actually increase consumption because the overall ME is reduced. Without knowing the ME of the mixed diet, you are just making guesses. Also, IF the bird selects components of the diet (such as scratch vs pellets), the "average" is meaningless.

ClintHi Clint! nice to see you posting here again.
I think a few of us are aware that the labeled average percent crude protein is not as important as a lot think it is. The important thing is that the birds get the right amount of the needed amino acids which are all rolled up in that percent protein report.
The same is true of Niacin, the feed may be Niacin rich but if it is in a form that the bird can't use (non-bioavailable) the bird could still be suffering from Niacin deficiency.
Moderators why do I have to keep loging in when I do a Reply? I think this was the 4th login needed for this simple reply!

[Evy]

GD, When you log in you should see a little box by your username that says ''remember me''. Check it & you won't have that problem.

I just tried it & it works but don't log out when you leave. Then you have to do it over next time.

[jungle]

That is making the incorrect assumption that food consumption is based upon protein content. All studies I am aware of suggest Metabolisable energy (ME) is what controls food intake. Adding Oats, which has lower ME than may lower protein, but actually increase consumption because the overall ME is reduced. Without knowing the ME of the mixed diet, you are just making guesses. Also, IF the bird selects components of the diet (such as scratch vs pellets), the "average" is meaningless.Clint

Selection of components aside, I am not sure I am following your thought. If one adds an ingredient to lower the percentage of protein then what does the volume have to do with it. Eating 10lbs of a diet containing 18% protein instead of 5lbs of a diet containing 18% protein is not consuming more protein as you must still factor in the added filler that must be either metabolized or excreted. That is still consuming 18% protein. If percentage of protein was truly meaningless then why bother using different formulas since the bird's consumption would determine what they are getting.

[goosedragon]

GD, When you log in you should see a little box by your username that says ''remember me''. Check it & you won't have that problem.

I just tried it & it works but don't log out when you leave. Then you have to do it over next time.Thanks I might have forgotten to check the remember me box. BC (before change) I just entered g and the rest of my handle and the other name and remember me would auto fill and I just had to click login and i was in. Now just my handle autofills and the PIN is one that I haven't used in years (too short & simple) So I have to stop and think. Account security has gotten to complex. A site I use to pay my gas bill, asks for user name, then answer 4 security questions before I am even allowed to guess my pin, and if I make a typo I have to start over again. The last time I tried they had added one of those distorted word boxes before I could make a payment. I won't repeat the words I used then. I just put the bill in the truck and paid in cash the next time I was at that end of town. The woman was PO'ed because she had to count and write a recipte. She said you know you can pay this on line... I hadn't really used the flame in a while but I TOLD her what I thought of the website.
Now if I can just remember to read ALL of the new posts Before I answer any, I would prevent the site from omitting the list of new posts and only showing the one I just posted

[goosedragon]

Selection of components aside, I am not sure I am following your thought. If one adds an ingredient to lower the percentage of protein then what does the volume have to do with it. Eating 10lbs of a diet containing 18% protein instead of 5lbs of a diet containing 18% protein is not consuming more protein as you must still factor in the added filler that must be either metabolized or excreted. That is still consuming 18% protein. If percentage of protein was truly meaningless then why bother using different formulas since the bird's consumption would determine what they are getting. Speak math? 10# @ 18% = 1.8# protien. 5# @ 18% =0.9# protien. Yes the % is 18% but the AMOUNT is different. Birds don't calculate, nor read labels. The label is required by the government to Prevent YOU buying a bag of ground up corn cobs instead of real feed.~gd

[Oregon Swedes]

[[[[......to Prevent YOU buying a bag of ground up corn cobs instead of real feed....]]]]]

That's right. No ground up corn cobs in my last bag of feed. Just floor sweepings: hulls of this and spent that, and leftover bits of things that they can't find any other use for

As a generalization, animals will eat less feed if the components are good quality. They eat more feed when there is low nutrition in the feed. I have my doubts that buying a feed with twice the protein will cut feed consumption in half. They really do need protein to grow muscle mass and to produce eggs. So I do think that the protein content is important. I wouldn't expect to get meat and eggs from feed that had a very low protein content. With poor nutrition in the feed, the ducks would be using all they ate just to stay alive.

I don't know if it is true in ducks, but it is definitely true in dogs and horses: good quality feed promotes good health and cuts back on your vet bills. Pay a little bit more for feed and pay a lot less at the vet's.

[goosedragon]

[[[[......to Prevent YOU buying a bag of ground up corn cobs instead of real feed....]]]]]

That's right. No ground up corn cobs in my last bag of feed. Just floor sweepings: hulls of this and spent that, and leftover bits of things that they can't find any other use forYou pretty much described "strach" which isn't labeled as Feed, If asked they will claim it is to promote activity in the confined flock

As a generalization, animals will eat less feed if the components are good quality. They eat more feed when there is low nutrition in the feed. I have my doubts that buying a feed with twice the protein will cut feed consumption in half.As far as I know, nobody claimed that they would, ME controls the amount they will eat and if that is balanced with the correct Protein, Fat & Fiber it will be a good productive feed, skipping ahead excess protein above what they use is just a waste. You do not get twice the number off eggs if you provide twice the protein that they need and they can develope muscle mass faster than the frame can can handle so excessive protein can be harmfull They really do need protein to grow muscle mass and to produce eggs. So I do think that the protein content is important. I wouldn't expect to get meat and eggs from feed that had a very low protein content. With poor nutrition in the feed, the ducks would be using all they ate just to stay alive.

I don't know if it is true in ducks, but it is definitely true in dogs and horses: good quality feed promotes good health and cuts back on your vet bills. Pay a little bit more for feed and pay a lot less at the vet's.I hate to be the one to tell you that most people don't take live Poultry to the vets, not cost effective, some times a dead bird will be sent away for exam since what killed one might show the problem for the whole flock, and it usually does if it is a disease or a diet problem.~gd

[jungle]

Speak math? 10# @ 18% = 1.8# protien. 5# @ 18% =0.9# protien. Yes the % is 18% but the AMOUNT is different. Birds don't calculate, nor read labels. The label is required by the government to Prevent YOU buying a bag of ground up corn cobs instead of real feed.~gd

Yes, I do. However, 10# @ 82% filler = 8.2# of filler and 5# @ 82% filler = 4.1# of filler. If the bird is consuming all of the feed and not just the protein, how is the protein the only part that increases?

[goosedragon]

Yes, I do. However, 10# @ 82% filler = 8.2# of filler and 5# @ 82% filler = 4.1# of filler. If the bird is consuming all of the feed and not just the protein, how is the protein the only part that increases?Who said the protein was the only part that increases? Do they add something to the water in MA that makes you so dense?

[Oregon Swedes]

You are correct Goose Dragon. Perhaps I should have said that good feed and good care result in better health and fewer losses.

I might be able to buy hatchery ducklings for $6, but I sure don't want to keep purchasing new ducks and paying tor raise them up.

If I have some nice exhibition ducks that I have invested years in developing, I sure don't want them dying from some random bug that a healthy duck might have fought off and survived. I'd rather invest in the quality feed and good care for the ducks to keep them in prime health.

Actually, I might pay to take a duck to the vet if it was one that was really important to my breeding program. Except that I don't even have to check to know that no vet in this area would have the slightest clue about how to treat a duck. So it would be a waste of money from that standpoint.

Off on a tangent, ducks in the peak of good health look better than poorly cared for ducks, so my opinion is that premium care is worth the time and $ for exhibition poultry. In order to feed a quality diet, one must have at least a rudimentary understanding of nutritional requirements.

The argument about % of protein has gotten too confusing to follow. I'm giving up on that discussion.

[Evy]

Swede,
The only part of the protein problem you need to worry about is just too much too soon. Ducklings grow amazingly rapidly &, like large breed dogs, can suffer leg joint problems from gaining weight too fast. Same goes for wings. Therefore, a 14-16% protein formula is desirable until the birds are 10-12 weeks old. I'm sure you'll be able to find a commercial line of feed that's suitable. Remember, too, that they're grazers & benefit from foraging for themselves or being supplied with fresh cuttings.

[jungle]

Who said the protein was the only part that increases? Do they add something to the water in MA that makes you so dense?

Hey Bob,

My question was in referrence to the claim that diluting the feed to lower protein percentage was not effective since the birds would simply eat more and then get too much protein anyway. That is where it came from.

[goosedragon]

Jungle- Sorry for being so rude, I had a dental preceedure (Think root canal but instead or cleaning out the root he removed it through the SIDE of the jaw in hopes that the crown that was left could function on the 2 remaining roots) heavy duty meds and I was warned not to operate heavy equipment or drive. Either half stoned or in pain all weekend. Why I thought it was OK to operate a computer doesn't make sense now that the good stuff is used up and I am on the over the counter stuff. Again I am sorry and I should not have posted as I did. ~gd

[goosedragon]

You are correct Goose Dragon. Perhaps I should have said that good feed and good care result in better health and fewer losses.

I might be able to buy hatchery ducklings for $6, but I sure don't want to keep purchasing new ducks and paying tor raise them up.

If I have some nice exhibition ducks that I have invested years in developing, I sure don't want them dying from some random bug that a healthy duck might have fought off and survived. I'd rather invest in the quality feed and good care for the ducks to keep them in prime health.

Actually, I might pay to take a duck to the vet if it was one that was really important to my breeding program. Except that I don't even have to check to know that no vet in this area would have the slightest clue about how to treat a duck. So it would be a waste of money from that standpoint.

Off on a tangent, ducks in the peak of good health look better than poorly cared for ducks, so my opinion is that premium care is worth the time and $ for exhibition poultry. In order to feed a quality diet, one must have at least a rudimentary understanding of nutritional requirements.

The argument about % of protein has gotten too confusing to follow. I'm giving up on that discussion.I agree with most of the above and if you can find a prepared feed made for Waterfowl buy it.

[valsey]

I agree with most of the above and if you can find a prepared feed made for Waterfowl buy it.

However - even the one feed I found for waterfowl has too high a protein content and I have no idea how to even calculate the niacin content. So I'm not sure that relying of feed manufacturers is really even the answer.

What does everyone else (who has not already said) feed their ducks? Can you tell me the niacin content?

[valsey]

It's rare in livestock to have a glutton that will over eat. It happens, but not often.

Tell my donkey that

[valsey]

Ducklings up to 2 weeks 20% protein, no 3-nitrophenylarsonic which is sometimes in chick starter and is toxic to ducks

No salt for ducks for the first 3 weeks. After that no more than .25 % salt.

Ducklings after 2 weeks, 17% protein

Ducks need both riboflavin and niacin and may need to have it supplemented.

I can find a feed with the lower protein - shouldn't be a huge problem. My concern is the niacin and other B vitamins. After two days of a 150 mg tablet of niacin in the water and two days of feeding this one particularly weak-legged duck an 1/8 of a tablet hidden in a pea, I see GREAT improvement. Also adding nutritional yeast to the feed which is now 16% chick starter.

Personally, I think most of the niacin sinks to the bottom of the water and they drink more from their swimming pond than the treated water...so that's not really working.

Why is their need for niacin lessened after a certain age? Or is it?

What is the best way to supplement them? Can I assume the best source for niacin is foraging? Do they get it from bugs or greens?

AND THE BIGGEST QUESTION: how much niacin do ducks require? Or do I need to just forget about that after 10 weeks of age.

Thanks for everybody's input on feeds!

[jungle]

Jungle- Sorry for being so rude,

No problem, goose. Been there, done that.

[3dogs]

Dave Holderread's book, "Raising the Home Duck Flock" includes recipes for homemade feed. For ducklings and adults he recommends 5 pounds of brewers dried yeast in a 100 pound feed mix. It is a good book, available at Amazon and Holderread's websites. It was revised recently, and my information is from the earlier edition but it probably hasn't changed.

[goosedragon]

Valsey-might I recommend this very old link that appeared on this site and I saved it away. I checked it this morning and it still worked! I think the author recently rejoined TPC with a new user name, anyway he is an Academic professional (footnotes and all!) He does a much better job of explaining waterfowl feeding than I ever could.
http://www.poultryconnection.com/quackers/Clint/feeding.html

The link at the very bottom will take you to Quackers Home which was hosted here in 2000 (you might want turn the sound off unless you are a HUGE fan of the Rubber Ducky song, I will be humming the thing all day now!) most of the links are still good reading even if a bit outdated.

[valsey]

Dave Holderread's book, "Raising the Home Duck Flock" includes recipes for homemade feed. For ducklings and adults he recommends 5 pounds of brewers dried yeast in a 100 pound feed mix. It is a good book, available at Amazon and Holderread's websites. It was revised recently, and my information is from the earlier edition but it probably hasn't changed.

Thanks for the info. I have the revised addition of Storey's Guide by Holderread - assume that's the one you mean. I didn't see that in the book (but haven't read the entire thing). So this is good info

[valsey]

Valsey-might I recommend this very old link that appeared on this site and I saved it away. I checked it this morning and it still worked! I think the author recently rejoined TPC with a new user name, anyway he is an Academic professional (footnotes and all!) He does a much better job of explaining waterfowl feeding than I ever could.
http://www.poultryconnection.com/quackers/Clint/feeding.html


Thanks goosedragon - some great info here that I'll read

[valsey]

Kind of off subject, but while reading the 'types of feed' section in the book, it occurred to me that these guys are way to young to be eating crumbles. They seem like they're having a hard time getting it down their throats.

At what age can ducks eat pellets?

[btm]

I try and introduce pellets to my ducks at 6-8 months

[valsey]

I try and introduce pellets to my ducks at 6-8 months

Really? My guys are only seven weeks old and I just gave them a handful of chicken pellets. They seemed to do okay with them. The crumble seems to really gunk up their throats. But I think I might have small giants here.

Anybody else have a recommendation?