4H At The Fair

[Oregon Swedes]

I've just spent the day at the county fair, and after all the criticism of the 4H, I've got to say, all their birds looked beautifully clean, well cared for, and well presented.

The judge was marvelous, lecturing as he judged, telling what he was doing, what he was looking for, why he was making his selections, and all in an extremely pleasant way.

I saw 3 different SOP's with 4-Hers checking in them.

I don't know about the quality of the chickens, but the ducks were all quite nice.

Maybe 4H is getting more bad press then they deserve.

[Patrick]

No, they usually deserve it, but I'm shocked and glad that you found one of the few clubs which doesn't. I'm especially impressed that they had standards, and that they were looking at them.

[Angela]

I've just spent the day at the county fair, and after all the criticism of the 4H, I've got to say, all their birds looked beautifully clean, well cared for, and well presented.

The judge was marvelous, lecturing as he judged, telling what he was doing, what he was looking for, why he was making his selections, and all in an extremely pleasant way.

I saw 3 different SOP's with 4-Hers checking in them.

I don't know about the quality of the chickens, but the ducks were all quite nice.

Maybe 4H is getting more bad press then they deserve.

OS, that is the exception...not the norm.

The gentleman (I use that term quite loosely) who took over managing the local county fair when I became incapacitated...has introduced quite a few new "varieties" of OEG....since his daughter (yeah, right) developed a liking for them. It's amazing how they win....The local fair is a farce.
The winner of the state competition for butcher birds (who has won the last 7 years that I know of), usually selects her pen of winning birds from the several THOUSAND that her father provides to her each year. Naturally, he keeps the best and sells the rest. I think that she has a bit of an unfair advantage.....wouldn't you say?

But that's just my RECENT experience with the local 4-H in my area. Maybe, I've just got a bad bunch?:) SERIOUSLY?

[Patrick]

Despite my criticism, I wouldn't say that dishonesty is rampant among them. Commercial producers or wealthy parents can often afford to obtain high quality animals for their children, giving them an advantage. When you get into large animal 4h, it's even worse, but believe it or not, that is one thing that doesn't bother me. It happens in the real world, where those with resources can afford the best. It's not the moonbeams and rainbows that everyone expects of the 4h experience nowadays, but it is a valuable lesson to be learned nonetheless. As I see it, it's an incentive to want to be the one to better oneself so that some day you too can be the one to have the quality things in life. You also bring up another point, that 4h itself doesn't even know it's own identity. In some areas the clubs cater to the production side of exhibition, some to the fancy side. Many clubs don't even undertsnd the difference, and are caught between the two, creating a lot of confusion for the children, IMO.

[Rich]

There are always bad eggs (pun intended) in any group and while I generally think 4-H is a good program, there are times when things get out of hand. Patrick is right about the larger livestock shows, but the interesting thing is that often big money spent on show animals doesn't always mean first places and champions. The saddest part of it all to me is that everyone is on the bandwagon to take advantage of the kids. I have no problem with people having to pay for what they get, but in many cases, people are stupid enough to pay huge somes of money for anaimals on the hope that they will get it back at an auction when they recieve champion placings. Poultry, sheep, swine, goats and cattle are worth commercially what they are worth. Now the feed companies are getting on board and developing high lysine feeds that make the animals grow more quickly and charging a high price for that too. I guess if you are stupid enough to get onto that wagon, you get what you deserve. Back in the day, it was more about learning to do the best job you could with what you had. Now it is more about money. Capitalism at its finest.

[Patrick]

That's a big part of the reasoning for a lot of my criticism. I'm no genius, believe me, but if I could understand at half the age of some of these kids (to say nothing about their parents)about sportsmanship, quality, fairness, work ethic, competition, winning and losing, etc, why can't they?
Good to see you back here.

[Bob308]

I don't know if this fits into the good side or the bad side of things but time will tell

The Brazos Valley Poultry club here in South Central Texas has formed a partnership with the Fancy Feathers 4-H poultry club.
The FF has their own show that is run by the kids, with help from the parents of course, but they have a hand in everything. They set up and tear down the show. They organize the fundraisers and help with the clerking. While an adult is the show secretary and handles the money the kids are aware of what is going on. The show runs runs about 400-500 birds, open and junior.

The BVPC puts on the Bluebonnet Classic a 1400 bird show ( Texas is a closed state) counting pigeons. The FF club has asked us if they can take over our junior show to help promote it and set it up. In exchange we help teach them more about showing and breeding. These kids pretty much have their own birds.

On the surface it sounds like a win for both sides and I am optimistic- but time will tell if I go Patrick on them.....( that is a joke for y'all with out senses of humor..)

[Angela]

Actually, that sounds pretty good. I hope that it works out.....let us know.

I wish TX was not a closed state. I'm a Houston girl myself, and miss not being able to compete in my home state. Used to love to go to Ft Worth, and I'm a life member of the HLSR (Houston Livestock Show & Rodeo). I live in MO now, but looking at selling the farm and heading south in the Spring.

Angela

[Patrick]

but time will tell if I go Patrick on them
Hey! I resemble that remark. LMAO!
From the way that you describe it, it sounds like there is a lot of potential there for a step in the right direction. Maybe a lot of my criticism is wrongly directed at the children. I guess that I was very lucky to be taught the values that I see so lacking in many of today's 4h programs, but even so, at 10 years old I still had some free will and thought of my own, which is why I sought out poultry shows in the first place, having come from a background that was foreign to most things agricultural.

[Bob308]

I know a few of the leaders in this group and they seem to be good at making the kids responsible. I don't know if it matters but most of the kids I know are home schooled. The first leader of the group has gone off to college in Dallas, he is 16.

[Oregon Swedes]

I spent several hours in the poultry/ rabbit barn today and there were 4-H kids running a broom around the floor non-stop. There wasn't one chip of shavings on the floor anywhere in the building or so much as one poop in any cage (any 4-H cage, that is. A couple of the open exhibitors weren't so clean with their cages.).

Every child was neatly and spotlessly dressed. There were kids stationed to answer questions for the visitors.

I heard that the open exhibitors hire the 4-H kids to water their birds so they don't have to come to take care of them. There were enough kids running back and forth to the water faucet with enough water bottles and coop cups that I doubt they were caring only for their own animals.

I didn't hear any temper tantrums and there was judging going on all the time I was there.

They sure seemed to be a great group of kids to me.

Nothing to do with 4-H, but the open judge wasn't worried about hurting feelings. I saw "poor quality" and other similar comments written on a few tags.

[Bob308]

Nothing to do with 4-H, but the open judge wasn't worried about hurting feelings. I saw "poor quality" and other similar comments written on a few tags.

Good

[Patrick]

I agree. We need more of that.
One thing I can say is that seldom have I seen a lack of care for their birds by 4h kids, at least while they're at the show. If anything, I've tried to suggest that show birds don't always need food and water the morning of the judging. A few hours isn't going to hurt them, esp when they have huge water bottles and feed dishes taking up a lot of space in the cage and blocking the judge's view, and ducks playing in the water and making a mess of themselves. I've seen them react in horror that anyone would actually suggest depriving the birds of anything, for even a few hours, while there are other things that they obviously sometimes ignore year after year, like reading their standards or spelling their breed names correctly.

[goosedragon]

Rich, Yes winners at large fairs are often auctioned but usually bring much more than their commercial value because the winning bidder usually wants the publicity either for himself or his business. Supporter of Youth, supporter of quality livestock etc the publicity is what is really being bought. I will never forget one of these auctions at a state fair (not NC) where $10,000 was paid for the champ 4H steer by the owner of a large beef producer operation. If only he had not answered the question of what he was going to do with the steer by saying he would add it to his breed line! I have never seen so many people and kids break up with laughter. ~gd

[Evy]

We used to have a great 4H group in my area. The leader was knowledgable & the teens were well behaved & helpful with set-ups & tear-downs. They knew their breeds & I know of a couple who went on to college for Ag. based careers. We all miss Alice & her kids.

Hi Rich...good to hear from you.

[ges]

Oregon Swedes, thanks for your post.. Take the criticism of 4-H you hear on this board with a grain of salt. There are plenty of good kids learning lots of good things in 4-H. What you saw is not unusual. Is it perfect? no. What is? Bad apples? sure. But I've been involved with 4-H kids in 3 different counties in 2 states and would say that most of the kids & parents were trying very hard to learn and to do things right. But it only takes one bad apple to leave a bad taste in the mouth.


gerry

[jungle]

Gerry,

You seem to be missing the point entirely. No one has lamented the focus being on production instead of exhibition. The criticism being presented here has valid roots and deals withe specific behaviors that are not helping the kids learn important lessons. Ignoring that it exists, or taking it with a "grain of salt" does nothing to remedy it. I'm confused as to why you would want to encourage that type of thing.

[Angela]

Gerry,

You seem to be missing the point entirely. No one has lamented the focus being on production instead of exhibition. The criticism being presented here has valid roots and deals withe specific behaviors that are not helping the kids learn important lessons. Ignoring that it exists, or taking it with a "grain of salt" does nothing to remedy it. I'm confused as to why you would want to encourage that type of thing.

I remember a similar thread regarding 4-H, a few years ago. I became quite heated, but eventually...most of us lost interest. There will always be a divide between the warm and fluffy, feel good folks, and the real world...do it right the first time folks. No one on either side is ever convinced by the other. I believe that setting the bar so low, does everyone a dis-service....but then, maybe it does discourage those children with lesser convictions, which I believe may not be such a bad thing. You cannot make the blind see, no matter how many facts you throw at them. Really reminds me of the BYC..except that we do have the power to disaggree on this forum. (Boy do I need spell check)
But, no point in arguing about it. Other then to bump up readership with the conflict.
Best of luck to you Gerry.

[goosedragon]

Angela, I too am a poor speller. The green checkmark at the top right is one spell check option. Myself I just open a reduced size window and run MS Word. Compose on Word, run spell check and paste on to TPC. ~gd

[Angela]

Thanks Bob,
You think that I would have it figured out by now.....

[Oregon Swedes]

If you switch browsers and use Firefox, it comes with a spell check that highlights any words that you misspell as soon as you write it. It's very convenient.

[Evy]

Thanks Bob,
You think that I would have it figured out by now.....

I never noticed it either! Duh ! I've worn the cover off my dictionary for nothing!! Thanks, Bob!

[papa]

I just returned from a fair in Illinois that is a gem. They have an open show and a 4H show. The judge is licensed and will judge both shows. The county I live in has 8 times as many people and less active 4H involvement. There are some good examples out there.

[JonAld]

I just got done with my 4-H fair also and it is a great one, we have a wide variety of birds and typically the people that bring hatchery birds their first year come back with better quality birds the next year. This year I think we had 600 birds total and it was a tough competition. Ours is only a 4-H show so only Juniors from our county can show in it.

[ges]

No, I didn't miss the point, Jungle. My main point was the first paragraph. 4-H, in more instances than not, does teach important life lessons. And when people criticize it because of their experiences, I have every right to say good things about it and to point out the good I have seen. That's why I say take those posts with a grain of salt. I guess that would apply to all posts on any internet forum.

gerry

[Patrick]

Oregon Swedes, thanks for your post.. Take the criticism of 4-H you hear on this board with a grain of salt. There are plenty of good kids learning lots of good things in 4-H. What you saw is not unusual. Is it perfect? no. What is? Bad apples? sure. But I've been involved with 4-H kids in 3 different counties in 2 states and would say that most of the kids & parents were trying very hard to learn and to do things right. But it only takes one bad apple to leave a bad taste in the mouth.

There is nothing wrong with some 4-H programs or members focusing on commercial chickens. It's different than purebred poultry shows...but not wrong. Historically, 4-H did focus on meat pens, broilers, farm flocks,...in other words trying to make money. What is wrong with that? More and more the trend is away from the commerical poultry and toward purebred poultry and poultry as a hobby. Some volunteer leaders, some county programs, some people have difficulty making the transition.

gerry

I agree with jungle, you missed the point of this discussion entirely. We're all welcome to our opinions, and mine is that the moonbeams and rainbows, Suzy Sunshine, everything is right in the world, everyone always gets a prize attitude of many 4h programs does a disservice to the kids, and does a poor job of preparing them for the real world, despite the life lessons that they claim to teach. Like our education system today, their cumbuya approach only serves to create the next generation of drop out college students, horrible coworkers and employees, freeloaders and sponges on our social services who expect everything to be handed to them.

[goosedragon]

I never noticed it either! Duh ! I've worn the cover off my dictionary for nothing!! Thanks, Bob!
I worked for years with Word; it also has an auto correct feature that I turn off because it doesn't tell you it is making a correction. The results can be very funny and very embarrassing. It was a real PITA for Latin, chemical, and even British English terms. ~gd

[ges]

Oregon Swedes, thanks for your post.. Take the criticism of 4-H you hear on this board with a grain of salt. There are plenty of good kids learning lots of good things in 4-H. What you saw is not unusual. Is it perfect? no. What is? Bad apples? sure. But I've been involved with 4-H kids in 3 different counties in 2 states and would say that most of the kids & parents were trying very hard to learn and to do things right. But it only takes one bad apple to leave a bad taste in the mouth.


gerry

Okay, I'vd deleted the 2nd paragraph of my first post. It was a side note - not the main point, so I'll just get rid of it. I still stand by the paragraph remaining.

gerry

[wyldflower]

ges ( Gerry) I agree! 4H is smetimes a tough subject. Here we just try the best we can to teach the kids about the birds with the help of our local poultry club. It's not perfect but the kids enjoy helping and learning. Our local poultry club keeps the kids very involved , They are OUR FUTURE!
We try to separate production birds ( layers & meat), exhibition birds, & just pets. the kids are encouraged to strive for and follow SOP. They learn and KNOW THE BREED!!