Pomeranian Bills

[Oregon Swedes]

Everyone knows that Pomeranians should have pink bills and feet. Even I know that and I have only had Pomeranians for a couple of months.

However, the way the SOP is written, pink bills are a disqualification (how did that happen?)

So, what I want to know is what are the judges actually doing at the shows. They must know that Pomeranians should have pink bills. They also know that pink is a disqualification.

So what are they actually doing when they are placing birds?

Matt should know. He's shown Pomeranians. I know we've got judges on this forum. Judges?

[Evy]

'' Bill: Redish-pink, or deep flesh color. DQ: distinct dewlap, color of shanks & feet other than orange red. ''
Nothing about DQing a pink bill.

[Hummer]

Let me preface this by saying that Pomeranians are one of my favorite geese and I have raised them in the past. They are a very complex goose and the plumage color is quite a challenge and not as easy as it my look. Most of the Pomeranians you see in US shows with have a orangish-red or pinkish-red bill color (alot are really pushing the orange part). Pomeranians and Tufted Romans have bill colors which distinquish them from the rest of the graylag derived geese which have a bright orange bill. The US Standard for Pomeranians calls for a reddish-pink to deep flesh colored bill and orange red to reddish pink foot and leg color (red is a key in both bill color and leg color for Poms). The British standards for Pomeranians calls for a Reddish or orange pink and legs and feet an orange red. You see a common theme of red popping up for Pomeranian standards for bill, foot and leg color.

Now in the big scheme of things, the scale of points for all geese allow for 2 points(out of 100) for bill color and 1 point for foot and leg color. The head of all geese allows for 7 points for white geese and 6 points for colored geese. The body, breast, wings and back make up for a total of 33 points for white geese and a total of 26 points for colored geese. If I personally had to make a quick evaluation of Pomeranians having raised them in the past here is where I would start looking:

1) Head- Pomeranians have a distinctive head which should be rather blocky with a flat crown.
2) Body- Pomeranians are a stocky and solid goose that can stand up in a good, stiff wind.
3) Lobe- Single lobe which distinquishes Pomeranians. I am not above crawling down on a concrete floor and looking either.
4) Neck- A medium length, upright and proud and rather stong looking neck. Not refined.
5) Overall color pattern- overall evenness and balance of a difficult color pattern. (Trust me, it is not as easy as it looks.)
6) Bill, foot and leg color.

Again, that is order for my personal quick evaluation of a Pomeranian goose by having raised them in the past. I am sure other exhibitors and judges with have a differing order of preference if they had to do a quick evaluation. Incidently, the Reserve Champion Waterfowl at the Nebraska State Fair this past weekend was a Gray Pomeranian old goose with a blocky head, a stocky, stout body that could stand up to any strong wind, a single tight lobe (even for an old goose), a proud and stocky neck and a great even color pattern with lacing that was excellent. Oh yeah, she did have a deep orangish red bill and deep orangish red legs :)

Again, the is just my personal take on Pomeranians and I am sure there will be differing opinions.

Hummer

[Evy]

Steve, Were there some good ones at Crossroads that time? I remember someone, maybe you, pointing out the better quality of a couple of them. I'd never seen one before then & was impressed.

[Hummer]

Steve, Were there some good ones at Crossroads that time? I remember someone, maybe you, pointing out the better quality of a couple of them. I'd never seen one before then & was impressed.

Yep, my feeble mind seems to recall some pretty nice Poms at the last Crossroads. Then when you run across a really nice Buff Pomeranian that is when it gets really exciting. You know, it is kind of a scary place when you find yourself way out on that limb some times :)

Hummer

[MattL]

I had Gray Poms for quite some time and worked with Craig Russel of the SPPA to correct the faults in the Standard during the last revison to no avail. Some of what is exhibited is actually a Scandia goose which has orange bills and feet. They have been crossed into the true Poms for better production and thus we now have double lobes and orange bills and feet. Brian Paul Witt used to have nice Poms in all the saddleback colors and several solid colors. It is a very hardy goose and survived well in our winters. I provided a shelter and they seldom used it. Loved the goose and did well with them over the years although a few judges do not have a clue what one should look like:)
MattL

[REDSnMOREREDS]

Everyone knows that Pomeranians should have pink bills and feet. Even I know that and I have only had Pomeranians for a couple of months.

However, the way the SOP is written, pink bills are a disqualification (how did that happen?)

So, what I want to know is what are the judges actually doing at the shows. They must know that Pomeranians should have pink bills. They also know that pink is a disqualification.

So what are they actually doing when they are placing birds?

Matt should know. He's shown Pomeranians. I know we've got judges on this forum. Judges?

Where did you see that this was a D/Q?

[Oregon Swedes]

RedsnMore, see Evy's correction. The disqualification is for pink legs and feet, the pink bill is a fault. My fault. I was thinking "extremities", and took the shortcut and only wrote "bills". Even though I know that readers only see what I write and not what I was thinking.

[Angela]

You can get a Standard of Perfection from the APA website. It'll answer most of your questions.

[Patrick]

Normally I am one to promote the Standard for questions such as this, but the poor editing of the last edition made the Pom bill color issue even more confusing than ever, rather than clear it up.

[Evy]

I actually saw a good one at the ENYPA show Sunday ! There was also the usual ''feed store'' Pom there, too. I hope it was as obvious to whoever judged. I know the owner knows the difference because she also had the Sebastapol there that should have been Ch. WF , if not show champ. ! Haven't heard any results yet.

[Brian Paul Witt]

Wow!! A lot has changed, and then I reckon nothing has really changed since I last posted here!
It is great to see there are still some that are concerned and questioning Pom bill and feet color. However, most judges miss all the other points... doesn't the Standard read, type, size, color...? In that order...? Type is very important and a Pom head is very distictive. Size--how many "Dom Blogett size" Poms placed in a MEDIUM class in the past couple decades? Color?
I've kept and bred all colors; saddleback is the most difficult, but even an excellent marked Pom that is too large or not Pom type should place well beneath one that is correct type--must be single lobed w/a flat head--or one that can compete with the Embdens.
BTW...
I've not shown in a while; don't plan to, but still keep some birds for breeding--I still have some kickass Muscovies... Oh yeah; in case anyone asks, I ain't selling nothing either...
Matt, Evy, Patrick--hope all is well,
BP

[Evy]

Hey Brian,
Glad to see you're still kicking. I'm not showing either & kind of gave up on this forum...no way to defeat the spammers. Guess we're still raising a few birds though. Are you still cooking up that powerful clear stuff, too? ;-)

[Bill McGee]

I'm not showing either & kind of gave up on this forum...no way to defeat the spammers.;-)

WOW never thought I'd EVER hear that . Its nice to see that there are some of the old timers still here (talking about myself).

Has anyone ever figured out how many total years of experience there is here? It's got to be in the 100s. Heck, GD by himself has to be close to that !!!

[Brian Paul Witt]

LOL!!
Yeah, I still make a bit of the hard stuff, though not enough to get on TVs "Moonshiners"
Lately been focusing on winemaking; cultivating more grapevines adn blueberries. That, and I have two kids in college...
So you know where all my cash is going!!
BP