Borrowed Birds

[Oregon Swedes]

I am going back through the SOP again and just noticed that I can be barred for showing "borrowed specimens".

I want to verify that what that means is I can't show someone else's birds under my name, pretending that they are mine.

I can still take other people's birds as long as they show on the paperwork as the owner?

Can I buy birds before judging or is it expected that I wait until after judging? Does the show committee have to be notified about the change of ownership?

[Evy]

I'd say that's one of those things that's been in there forever & that no one even knows about. Don't worry about it. I've seen people enter birds they had delivered to the show, or even had bought just prior to judging! It won't win you any respect from your fellow exhibitors to do that, but it won't get you thrown out. We all started with birds from somewhere else. It's the exhibitors that ALWAYS "buy to win", never hatch one of their own, then get Master Breeder points, that annoy me.

[Angela]

Yep, I can think of one in particular that is enjoying points that he won on a bird that I owned. He's a Master Exhibitor now, with absolutely no scruples.

[Oregon Swedes]

Maybe it has something to do with the qualifying shows for new breeds to be admitted to the standard.

[Patrick]

Maybe it has something to do with the qualifying shows for new breeds to be admitted to the standard.

I don't see the connection.
In turkeys especially, it is sometimes possible to find a show quality specimen from hatchery stock. As there is really only one semi-regular source of standard bred turkeys, often that is the only option. There's nothing wrong with exhibiting them, but like Evy touched on, the true measure of a successful exhibitor is one who can prove his skill at improving a line through his own breeding. I don't see the sense of accomplishment that comes from exhibiting only purchased birds. It's another reason why I'm anti-BYC. They think nothing of buying a bird one day, exhibiting it the next, and boasting about how proud they are of their "accomplishment", usually to the praise of like minded dolts. In horses due to the nature of their breeding cycle, it's considered OK, esp since much of their success is measured in training (also often purchesd). In dogs too, it's not always frowned upon, if the successful purchased dog goes on to contribute to proving the breeder's skill, but in most other species that I've seen, it's the breeding that matters in the long term, not winning with an individual bird.

[Oregon Swedes]

My thought was that the APA expects multiple breeders of new varieties before they will admit them to the SOP. If one breeder gets 10 of his friends to enter his birds, it will look like 11 breeders. But the Friends don't own the birds they are showing; they are showing borrowed birds.

However, the rule against showing borrowed birds was not in the section about getting new varieties recognized. I just thought it was a rather strange rule.

Sorry that it makes you unhappy, Patrick, but I will be showing my purchased birds. I need to evaluate their quality as I am organizing my own breeding program and it is a big help to see them side by side with other birds and to get a judge's opinion. If it makes you any happier, I am very open about who the breeders of the birds are, so the breeder gets full credit.

I find that animals always look a lot better while in their owner's stable and it can be a shock to see them stacked up against other top quality animals. Usually, it is a real eye opener. I think the birds I bought are pretty darn nice. I want to see if I still think so after they have been sitting next to other show birds.

[Angela]

You're no different than any other new person to the fancy.
We all have to start somewhere. I made the mistake of showing my own birds first time out of the box. It was a rough lesson, but I quickly learned what was needed and what was not. I would navigate you toward breed clubs, but...in my experience, they are seldom very helpful. It's all about personal ethics. Some people just don't have any. But, as long as you give credit where credit is due, you should be alright.

Just a thought:
Showing is not the end all be all of poultry breeding. My friend Rog has bred some of the most outstanding Dutch in the country, and I don't believe that he has ever entered a show.....no matter how hard I begged.

[Patrick]

However, the rule against showing borrowed birds was not in the section about getting new varieties recognized. Yes it does. Proof must be shown that the new breed or variety has been exhibited by at least three different exhibitors, and that it has been bred by no less than 5 breeders. I'm not going to retype all of the requirements here. I get so tired of doing that every time someone asks this question, when it's all right there in black and white for anyone to read. I suppose one breeder could get toether with her friends and enter her own birds multiple times over the years required, but that is unlikely. I just thought it was a rather strange rule. Of course you would, seeing that you obviously don't get the most basic reason for exhibiting in the first place.
Sorry that it makes you unhappy, Patrick, but I will be showing my purchased birds. I need to evaluate their quality as I am organizing my own breeding program and it is a big help to see them side by side with other birds and to get a judge's opinion. If it makes you any happier, I am very open about who the breeders of the birds are, so the breeder gets full credit. It doesn't make me unhappy at all. I understand what you're doing in this case, and that's fine. If that's the kind of thing that gives you a sense of accomplishment in the long run, I have my opinions about it, but it doesn't really matter to me one bit..

[Evy]

<<<
Sorry that it makes you unhappy, Patrick, but I will be showing my purchased birds. I need to evaluate their quality as I am organizing my own breeding program and it is a big help to see them side by side with other birds and to get a judge's opinion. If it makes you any happier, I am very open about who the breeders of the birds are, so the breeder gets full credit.>>>
I believe what the others were saying is about the word "ONLY" . The have been a few very successful EXHIBITORS , 2 now deceased, that bought EVERY bird they showed. It demeened the work the rest of us did to get to a MASTER BREEDER status when someone else had the cash to buy their award. I was always happy for someone to win with something they'd bought from me, but even happier when they, at least, thanked me for the help.

[Bob308]

We all have our reasons for wanting to show, but I don't think anyone really knows what their true goal is till they have been showing for about 10 years ( if they last that long). If someone wants to show a bird they bought, it doesn't really bother me. I have to beat the bird no matter who owns it. If it turns into a habit I pretty much lose respect for that person, and people know who is showing a bought bird or not.
As far as BYC type people buying birds and showing them, that doesn't bother me either. Most are not good enough to find a bird to buy and show and win anything other than BV in an odd variety. Let them have their fun, it will be short lived.

For the most part I just worry about Bob, and that pretty well takes all my time.

[Patrick]

I do agree with Evy, but I will say at least that one of those guys did buy and exhibit quality birds. He made no secret about what he did. That was just his thing, he wasn't a breeder. He did support the shows with massive entries too. I'd never talked to him about how he felt about what his chosen methods of exhibiting, and how he measured his success against those who actually bred their own birds, but certainly he was more saavy about what it meant than the BYCer who boasts to the world that she now has a "show quality" hatchery bird that she bought at a swap meet last week which took 1st simply because it had no competition. BTW, the biggest critic of this Hall of Fame exhibitor (and of just about everyone and everything else) I later found out also purchased many of his winning birds, at least in later years, from the same source!

[katschicks]

I don`t show my birds for the simple reason that it`s to much work to me to get one ready. I would just rather raise them. It is nice to see somebody buy a bird , show it and do well with it. If I know it is somebody that just buys birds to show , like Bob , thats ok with me too. But the price of the bird goes up , alot , if I know they do that. Not into raising birds to make money , after all it is a hobby. Usually I sell enough birds to pay the feed bill and other costs of keeping them if you don`t count the time you spend with them. So dollar wise it`s not real expensive to keep them. As far as borrowing birds to show or having somebody else show your bird in their name to fill a class for points , no way. As far as entering 25 birds of your own in a class more power to you. It`s your birds , your money and it helps the club. Just a few of my thoughts.

[Oregon Swedes]

I agree with katschicks, here. If I get to the point that people want to buy my birds to show, I'm perfectly happy to let them use their money to take my birds to shows. It's not like it's cheap to show birds in this area where there are few shows and they are a long distance apart. I'm perfectly capable of bragging when one of my birds wins under new ownership.

I am going to try to keep the breeding level down to just what I can use myself, but I still wouldn't mind a few dollars coming in to help with the feed bill. If someone decides they like one of my birds, are willing to pay good money for it, and it isn't one that I intend to keep for myself, then I am happy to sell and see them show it.

If they think the bird will help them improve their own flock, even better.

[Angela]

I don`t show my birds for the simple reason that it`s to much work to me to get one ready.

One of these days Rog......

[Oregon Swedes]

Or switch to ducks. They are self-bathing.

[katschicks]

Or switch to ducks. They are self-bathing.

So are fish. And I don`t want to show them either.