Selecting Saxony Breeders

[Omega Blue Farms]

We imported 11 Saxony ducklings from a well respected source. I've sexed them and as luck would have it, we have 3 females and 8 males. They have just finished growing in their first set of feathers. None of the females have what I would call good quality facial striping. However, 4 of the males have really nice facial striping which I assume will eventually dissapear behind the blue head. As luck would have it, the two biggest males have no facial striping.

I'm a long way from making any hard decisions on the males but will probably only keep 3 to go with the 3 females. Not the ideal situation, but ya work with what you got.

My questions, to aid in my selection decisions is:

Does anyone have experience selecting for female traits (facial stripes) from juvenile male? Or in other words, all things being equal, are the males with nice facial striping more likely to produce better daughters than the males without?

Thanks for any advice.

[Omega Blue Farms]

Hmmm ... nobody knows? Is this too advanced for this forum? :mrgreen:

Joking aside, anyone interested in what I learn?

[7961]

Somebody should know here??? Other than just looking @ the birds, I do not have any experience with them. If you need to contact Holderread's in OR. I am sure they would be more than willing to answer some questions. http://www.holderreadfarm.com/

[TomNY]

Adult Saxony drakes will show facial stripes during the eclipse molt. Size and type first, but selecting drakes with good stripes will help the ducks' markings. Tom

[Omega Blue Farms]

Thank-you both. I'm glad to know that they will demonstrate their facial stripes again in the eclipse moult. In a year, I'll certainly have a better idea of what I'm looking for.

I agree, size and type first and always! These birds are from Holderreads and therefore have good type. In fact, if I just look at their outline, they are like peas in a pod. I will definately be weighing each and every one for the record book and only consider those that are standard weight or more.

If the breed sticks, I will then select for egg production once the base population is built.

I'm exited, hopefully my muscovies will finally have some competition for the heavy duck class :twisted:

[littlebit6657]

On another Saxony note, has anyone ever hatched white birds from Saxonies? I only ask on this thread because my husband got his Saxony from H as well.

[Brian Paul Witt]

Unless you are unwilling to inport from (Saxony/East) Germany, the best breeder in North America is Fred Farthing in Missouri.
Fred doesn't feed you some elaborate sales line; he selectively breeds his birds and does show them in a competitive area.
If you are willing to jump through the hoops and pay the big $$$ to import; email me and I will give you a contact in Saxony.
"nuff said."
BP

[batesbrowns]

I agree with brian paul 100% fred has some very nice saxonys and back when i had my muscovys he beat me with a very nice female they seem to do very well in tough competition i think there was 45 or more heavy ducks that year and i am going to get some more muscovys from him this year its been 4 years since i have had some show ducks can't wait
thanks
Jacob

[Omega Blue Farms]

Take the above advice with a grain of salt, it is tainted by Brian's personal dislike for Holderread. I guess some feel they can make their flame burn brighter by blowing on another?

One of our new young Saxony males have finally given our Muscovies competiton for the Heavy Duck class, winning twice. First time this has happened since I started showing them in 2004. Very impressive wins and I tip my hat to the breeder!!!!

To further put this into perspective, a couple have tried importing top eastern American bred muscovies to put my locally bred efforts in their place. They were not even competitive. I recall at our National putting 5 old black males up against the import "ringer". The import placed a distant 6th.



Back to the subject heading, Selecting Saxony Breeders:

It's important to note that the following observations are based upon viewing only 13 birds. I have observed a respectable amount of variation in those 13 birds, they are not peas in a pod. All are obvious Saxonies, but when viewing the finer details, each differs in it's strong and weak points. As a breeder, I like the genetic variation because it provides an opportunity to further refine the breed without outcrossing to another line.

Some patterns emerged which could be due to nothing more than the small sample size. For instance, those males with the best female markings (first feathers) developed into the least desireable males. The most robust males with best male colouring came from the males that initially displayed the poorest female markings. This could all just be a coincidence, but may also suggest that there are sex related traits working against each other and the need to focus on distinct male and female lines. Who knows? Can't wait to revisit these ideas after observing the outcome of a hatching season.

[Brian Paul Witt]

Dear Omega,
You don't know me or my bias.
So here is some personal/my own convictions....

If you have anything to say to me, here is my home number as well as my cell. If you have any balls, call me.
803-432-1067
803-260-1889
By the way, what is your's?? I have a good many family in Canada, so I'm willing to make the call.
I stand by what I say and I ain't scared to post my email or phone number and I can speak English very well.
I have given you more than enough opportunites to respond in private, but I have not heard anything.
I will be at the joint national in 2011. Please come and introduce yourself and I will shake your hand (and we can start fresh)--and I will more than gladly offer to pay for drinks.
Before you make some blind conclusion, you ought to at least talk to me in person or via email. I answered your post via private and you still chose to vilify me online; typical of one without class.

Regardless of our differences, the offer still stands for drinks on me.

Yeah, Matt (and the other moderators), I know, this post will probably be deleted...
Brian Paul Witt

[breeder]

Dear Omega,
You don't know me or my bias.
So here is some personal/my own convictions....

If you have anything to say to me, here is my home number as well as my cell. If you have any balls, call me.
803-432-1067
803-260-1889
By the way, what is your's?? I have a good many family in Canada, so I'm willing to make the call.
I stand by what I say and I ain't scared to post my email or phone number and I can speak English very well.
I have given you more than enough opportunites to respond in private, but I have not heard anything.
I will be at the joint national in 2011. Please come and introduce yourself and I will shake your hand (and we can start fresh)--and I will more than gladly offer to pay for drinks.
Before you make some blind conclusion, you ought to at least talk to me in person or via email. I answered your post via private and you still chose to vilify me online; typical of one without class.

Regardless of our differences, the offer still stands for drinks on me.

Yeah, Matt (and the other moderators), I know, this post will probably be deleted...
Brian Paul Witt

Not deleted, just tidyed up a bit. :)

[Brian Paul Witt]

To Matt, Breeder, and all,
I apologise for the language.
Thanks for the small edit; I tend to get cocky (pun intended--I'm in the home of the 'Fighting Gamecocks'--South Carolina!!) at night with a few drinks and some Vicodin in me.
Due to some personal issues, some health problems, and A LOT of soccer/Futbol games, I've not been online in almost two weeks... That said, there is no excuse for my language or tone in my previous post on this forum.
Again, I apologise to Omega Blue Farms, the moderators, and to any other viewers/posters.
I was way out of line with the comments that were deleted.
Thank you and asking for your forgiveness; if not, I understand.
Sincerely,
BP

[MattL]

All is cool with me BPW! Breeder is faster than I am:) I am still up for that drink though next time our paths cross:)
MattL

[Evy]

All is cool with me BPW! Breeder is faster than I am:) I am still up for that drink though next time our paths cross:)
MattL

Be careful what you ask for, Matt. BP makes a pretty powerful cocktail !!! :)

[Patrick]

I've heard tell about that old mountain dew of his.

[GrannyCarol]

I haven't read this forum for some time, but am enjoying catching up a bit this fall.

I got Saxonys last year, never having actually met one before. I love the breed, the two ducks I have are absolutely gorgeous and match the various pictures of quality Saxony ducks I have seen. They are a mother/daughter and I can hardly tell them apart. The two males I got last summer have stripey heads and not a good clear blue head, one more than the other, but otherwise seem to be very nice type. These were just straight run, NOT sold to me as show quality ducklings.

I may well be looking for another source for more of them next year so that I can have more than one bloodline to work with as so far I'm loving them.

[Robert Blosl]

I do not know a thing about breeding the Saxony color pattern but let me tell you something I have learned from investagating the Gray Call color pattern. If you have a young male with good stripes on his face and you wished they would be on your females take the male that had the best stripes of all the males and mate him to the best female that meets your color ideal. Even though he losses his stripes as a adult male he showed you as a young drake he had them. I hatched a late gray call baby duck hoping it would be a pullet. This duck had the best color I ever saw on a female gray call. After he went thourgh the wing deveolpment he started loosing his pretty female color. He is now the prettyest colored drake I ever hatched, he has no black in his bill and he should have very good type. I will mate him to the best colored female I got this year hoping to improve the color on my females in years to come. It is my hope that these males that show good female color as a young drake will pass this on to their female off spring years in to the future. You may even take this drake and mate him back to two of his best daughters next year and improve this color in this section of the body. One day with putting breeding pressure in this area you will have the color which you dream about. If you can not get this color to show up then go and get a good drake or female from the breeder that they where talking about.
This may work as well with this color pattern. I do not know if anyone has written or passed on the secrets of breeding the saxony color pattern. I have yet to find a article on breeding Rouen, Gray Call or Mallard color pattern for the past fifty years to help me with my questions.
Hope this helps you up in Canada.

Brian, I will be at the show in Indiana, I will have a glass of milk with you and Matt when you go out for a drink. Or better yet lets have a party in a hotel room on Friday night befor the show.
Look forward to finding out who one best call and best duck at the Ohio National. Sould not be to much longer befor the word gets out. Bob

[Omega Blue Farms]

Thank-you Robert, your decades of practical experience coincides with my gut instincts. Thanks.

As I suggested earlier, my best male had the worst female facial markings in his juvenile plumage. However, that better male has stood out from early on and I favoured it before it went on to win Best of Breed at all sanctioned shows I attended this year, beating my muscoveys once. Since I focus on production before show, I strongly favour body type over feather colour in my selections, and therefore must give priority to this male.

The male with the best female markings was a smaller, less robust male that I ranked 5th for body type. For the sake of retaining the female facial colour traits, I selected it as my 3rd and last breeder male. I intend to only select his best daughters for use in future generations.

I would also like to point out that this breed is starting to look like fantastic layers. They starting to lay a month ago, despite being under natural lighting and this far north. Suprisingly, so far they are not that much behind the Campbells in the laying department. It's hard resisting the urge to put them into the incubator ;)



************************************************

Brian, I replied to your PM.

[TomNY]

I'm afraid I would set a few to check drake fertility this time of year. Fall eggs don't always mean fertile eggs. Tom

[VGP]

My Cayugas would sometimes lay in the Fall and their eggs were never fertile. My Saxonies have laid every Fall for the three years I have had them and so far the eggs have always been fertile. I am about to set 15 this week.

Carl
Valley Green Poultry

[Omega Blue Farms]

been eating Saxony eggs for breakfast lately and so far, all have been fertile.

Tony, my cayugas still haven't started laying, you must be doing something better than me. ;)

[Brice]

Hi all,
I finally got my password reset so I can post as i have been meaning to for some time now on this thread as Saxony ducks were my main large duck focus. I was the first person, that i know of, that had a saxony get a Heavy Duck placement at a show.. and that was one hard task!

Since the Saxony are similar to the Butterscotch calls, the males due show female eye streaks in juvie plumage and during molts, but they saxony and butterscotch are two different patterns...
With my experience within the Saxony, there will always be a large variation in the size/type and color at this time... Its a challenge to get the right color on the right typed bird. many a times the best colored bird in a years hatch was not of top type and vise versa.
What I have found out to be the best way to go, is to select the birds that show the best of what they are supposed to be versus what they "could throw" in the opposite sex offspring. If the breed goes towards a trend of breeding from an inferior bird to produce a superior bird of the opposite sex.. then where is the integrity of the breed heading???

i have hatched out and raised over 1,000 saxony ducks when I had them and had several matings together of pairings the complimented each other and vise versa, and many other combinations and I still saw a wide variation in the offspring from every mating. It wasn't till I bred a few generations of the birds I selected as the best, did I start to see a positive correlation on the offspring for both desirable color and type.....

Its a tricky breed to get everything just right, but thank goodness they breed like crazy and are hardy as all get out.

To answer the facial stripe question more specifically... I would list higher the males that do show AT LEAST some female facial coloring when young, BUT ALSO feather out to have a solid blue head...... I would shy away from males that show EXCESSIVE female coloring when young AND feather out to NOT have a solid blue head.. i.e. having some rust color patches on their heads or showing a tint of eyestreaks when in adult male plumage.. and in my opinion... breeding from a male that does not have a solid blue head will increase the chances of the male offspring not having a solid blue head.

So in other words, dont sacrifice one for the other...
Also, solid white neck rings in the males are very important.. Most of the early Saxony males in north America did not have solid white neck rings... but I felt that big strides have been made and many breeders have all their males showing full neck rings...

I agree with Brian that Fred has the best Saxony.... maybe because I am a little biased since the heart of my flock went to him... But the Saxony ducks he has put out in the show halls since he started with them have been exceptional!


We imported 11 Saxony ducklings from a well respected source. I've sexed them and as luck would have it, we have 3 females and 8 males. They have just finished growing in their first set of feathers. None of the females have what I would call good quality facial striping. However, 4 of the males have really nice facial striping which I assume will eventually dissapear behind the blue head. As luck would have it, the two biggest males have no facial striping.

I'm a long way from making any hard decisions on the males but will probably only keep 3 to go with the 3 females. Not the ideal situation, but ya work with what you got.

My questions, to aid in my selection decisions is:

Does anyone have experience selecting for female traits (facial stripes) from juvenile male? Or in other words, all things being equal, are the males with nice facial striping more likely to produce better daughters than the males without?

Thanks for any advice.

[GrannyCarol]

I just have a couple of Saxonys - at this time two drakes and two ducks - but I wanted to add an observation and ask if this is at all typical... My older duck went broody last summer and hatched 6 ducklings, took 7 more from the incubator (very near to the same age, except a couple that were actually a few days older) and raised them all successfully. I was very impressed with her mothering ability. Is this normal for Saxonys? She's a beautiful duck and I was happy to get a broody.

[Brice]

I had never let mine go broody on a nest of eggs, but have herd from several other people of them having hens that will go broody and hatch out some ducklings... But for the most part they are not a dependable broody duck.

Brice


I just have a couple of Saxonys - at this time two drakes and two ducks - but I wanted to add an observation and ask if this is at all typical... My older duck went broody last summer and hatched 6 ducklings, took 7 more from the incubator (very near to the same age, except a couple that were actually a few days older) and raised them all successfully. I was very impressed with her mothering ability. Is this normal for Saxonys? She's a beautiful duck and I was happy to get a broody.

[Omega Blue Farms]

Thanks Brice for sharing what you learned from the breed.

"breeding from a male that does not have a solid blue head will increase the chances of the male offspring not having a solid blue head."

With a starting population of only 8 males, that premise ended up being the driving factor in my selections. After they matured, the males really started falling apart and I found myself in a situation where I ended up rejecting birds rather than selecting them. When the dust settled, I was left with 3 males, one of which is just a backup that likely won't be used. The best drake remained the best throughout the growout. Best body shape, best size, best colours, with one small flaw, the white neck ring. White ring is sharp and well defined, but has a small 1/8" break at the back. He had moderate eye patches as a juvenile and will be with the best two females. These three birds are really the only ones who's offspring I want to feed.

The second place male had nice head colouring, body colouring, and a complete neck ring. He had a full eyestripe as a juvenile. He is mated to a hen with a mediocre eye stripe. Both birds pale in comparison to the other three and are just a backup mated pair.

In all, I wish I was starting with a deeper genetic base, but hopefully if enough offspring are hatched, selected, and processed for food, a strong healthy flock can be developed.

I remind myself that my muscovy flock descend from a single hen and her brood 30 plus years ago.

"It wasn't till I bred a few generations of the birds I selected as the best, did I start to see a positive correlation on the offspring for both desirable color and type....."

THis was the case with our Rhode Island Reds and Ameraucanas. We were trying to maintain a broad genetic base and using a complimentary mating system that considered trait qualities and inbreeding coefficients. At they end of 2007, we looked back and realized that our best stock was hatched in 2004 and 2005. We were going backwards and production was dropping off. It seemed radical to my wife at the time, but we tossed all the old birds and selected the best dozen youngsters of each breed. Three quads each. It worked, both breeds have rebounded with a level of quality I've never seen before.

It's funny. As someone with a formal education in genetics, I've been trained that one needs to preserve genetic diversity to maintain quality. I figured out a few years ago that theory and reality don't mesh in the heritage chicken breeding world. Our breeds were created by breaking the rules of safe inbreeding but the rule breaking was offset by careful selection and just the shear numbers of fanciers all doing the same thing in a wide range of environments. The trap the academics fell into is that they made the false assumption that each breed and/or flock is in genetic isolation. They aren't, they are all interconnected.

Safe inbreeding boils down to the removal of "bad" genes and outcrossing happens when "good" genes were missing.

My muscovy flock really drove the point home for me. My entire flock is decended from that single duck a few decades back. They were maintained as a food source, not fancy breed. The farmer was not a breeder, nor did he have any formal breeding understandings. They freeranged, multiplied, and in the fall he processed all but those he liked best. In recent years, something really magical has happened with that muscovy flock.

So while my academic side doesn't like the fact that I'm staring my Saxony flock with just a trio, what I've already observed tells me that it's not the end of the world.

[GrannyCarol]

Right now I have two drakes and two ducks in my Saxonys. One duck is out of the other and one of the drakes. I really like the two ducks, I think the drakes aren't the best color, but their type seems very consistant with what I see in the pictures. I'm not really breeding for show, but do want a few more Saxonys and do want good looking proper birds. I guess I'm a bit of a breed snob from years and years of dog show breeding! :)

I'd like to know where to get some good Saxony ducklings this spring (and maybe how to get in touch with the breeder too!). I would also like to know where to get good Appleyards, I just love that breed and have had trouble with the ones I have.