What Duck Feed do you feed your Call Ducks

[Robert Blosl]

I would like to ask those who raise Call Ducks what Duck or Goose Feed do you have a available in your region. Do you like Hubbard Feeds or Homestead Feeds. Is there any difference between the two products they sell ? I am looking for a duck and goose food to feed my young call ducks from the hatcher to about four months of age. Any suggestions ? I can get Hubbard Feeds in my location. Look forward to your reply.

[Evy]

I'm not in your area, Bob, but I use Mazuri WF Starter mixed with Purina Start 'n Grow ( medicated ) crumbles for the first 5-6 weeks, then add a 16% grower pellet until they can manage the pellets alone. No WF feed available here & can't afford to order Mazuri beyond the initial starter feed. I used to be able to get Southern States WF trucked in, but no more.

[Robert Blosl]

When I typed in this message I was thinking of you Evy and Goose Dragon as their are no better experts on nutrion on call ducks than you two my view. I have had great luck using Flint River Mills Game bird pellets mixed in with a little scratch to cut down the protein on my chickens and ducks. I started using Game bird developer and finisher from this company about 15 years ago when a local bantam breeder who put a finish on his birds and would beat me said my feed wasn't worth S--t. Then I asked him what do you feed your birds and I could not believe he told me FRM Game Bird Products. I even went to his feed store and talked to the owner who sold him his feed and he told me just what my friend bought every year. I started using it and saw a huge change in my finish on my Rhode Island Red large fowl and then I had a chance to try to beat this guy. When you open a bag of this stuff you can see its loaded with green color or Alfalfa hay. I have below some of the products I could purchase and mix with Purina chick starter. I can buy Mazuri duck maintance feed for about $45. per large sack. I do not know if its any better than the products below. They run about $12.50 a 50 pound sack. My problem down here in this hot and humid climate is angle wings on my little ducks when they start filling out their wing feathers. This year I gave them the FRM chick starter about 20% protein but when they would start to developer their wing feathers I mixed a chick mix and a cattle feed about 12% and got my protein average down to about 14%. Not one baby duck had a angle wing this year and then when their wings are fully deveolped I put them back to game bird pellets and they are doing just fine. Maybe Evy you and Goose Dragon can look at these figures and contents below and advise a better game plan. Also, it will help those who are learning how to raise waterfowl and of course the hardest duck to get up to four months of age the Call. Thanks for your input and future advice. BOB

FRM GAME BIRD PELLETS

FRM Game Bird Pellets is a complete game bird feed and should be fed to growing birds as their sole ration.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude Protein, Min. 20.00%
Crude Fat, Min. 3.00%
Crude Fiber, Max. 12.00%

INGREDIENTS:
Corn Meal, Wheat Middlings, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Soybean Meal, Poultry By Product Meal, Dried Whey Product, Animal Fat Stabilized with B.H.A. (a preservative), Limestone, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Yeast Culture, Dried Streptococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Brewers Dried Yeast and Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Zinc Methionine, DL-Methionine, Ethoxyquin, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, D-Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin K Supplement, Magnesium Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate and Sodium Selenite



FRM GAME BIRD BREEDER CRUMBLES

Breeder Birds -This is a complete feed. Start feeding as the only feed at least 30 days before the breeding season and continue as long as eggs are being used for hatching.

Growing Breeders -After 14 weeks on F-R-M Game Bird Grower, birds may be fed F-R-M Game Bird Breeder Crumbles with free choice F-R-M Scratch Feed as an economy measure. The grain must be discontinued 30 days before the breeding season begins.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude Protein, Min. 20.00%
Crude Fat, Min. 3.00%
Crude Fiber, Max. 7.00%


INGREDIENTS:
Corn Meal, Soybean Meal, Wheat Middlings, Poultry By Product Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Whey Product, Animal Fat Stabilized with B.H.A. (a preservative), Limestone, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Yeast Culture, Dried Streptococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Brewers Dried Yeast and Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Zinc Methionine, DL-Methionine, Ethoxyquin, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, D-Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin K Supplement, Magnesium Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate and Sodium Selenite.

FRM OSTRICH GROWER/MAINTENANCE PELLETS

Feed Ostrich Grower/Maintenance Pellets beginning at 4 weeks of age to birds selected for breeding or slaughter. Feed based on growth and grazing availability until birds achieve 80% of adult body weight. This feed can also be used as a maintenance diet for adult non-breeding birds. This feed can be fed free-choice or restricted to Ostrich on pasture.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude Protein, Min. 16.00%
Crude Fat, Min. 4.00%
Crude Fiber, Max. 7.00%


INGREDIENTS:
Corn Meal, Soybean Meal, Wheat Middlings, Poultry By Product Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Animal Fat preserved with BHA (a preservative), Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Yeast Culture, Methionine Hydroxy Analogue, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Choline Chloride, Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin, Biotin, Folic Acid, Vitamin K Supplement, Thiamine, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Ethoxyquin, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Zinc Oxide, and Calcium Iodate.

http://frmfeeds.com/80712/97212.html



This is the link to all thier game bird feed they sell.

[goosedragon]

When I typed in this message I was thinking of you Evy and Goose Dragon as their are no better experts on nutrion on call ducks than you two my view. I have had great luck using Flint River Mills Game bird pellets mixed in with a little scratch to cut down the protein on my chickens and ducks. I started using Game bird developer and finisher from this company about 15 years ago when a local bantam breeder who put a finish on his birds and would beat me said my feed wasn't worth S--t. Then I asked him what do you feed your birds and I could not believe he told me FRM Game Bird Products. I even went to his feed store and talked to the owner who sold him his feed and he told me just what my friend bought every year. I started using it and saw a huge change in my finish on my Rhode Island Red large fowl and then I had a chance to try to beat this guy. When you open a bag of this stuff you can see its loaded with green color or Alfalfa hay. I have below some of the products I could purchase and mix with Purina chick starter. I can buy Mazuri duck maintance feed for about $45. per large sack. I do not know if its any better than the products below. They run about $12.50 a 50 pound sack. My problem down here in this hot and humid climate is angle wings on my little ducks when they start filling out their wing feathers. This year I gave them the FRM chick starter about 20% protein but when they would start to developer their wing feathers I mixed a chick mix and a cattle feed about 12% and got my protein average down to about 14%. Not one baby duck had a angle wing this year and then when their wings are fully deveolped I put them back to game bird pellets and they are doing just fine. Maybe Evy you and Goose Dragon can look at these figures and contents below and advise a better game plan. Also, it will help those who are learning how to raise waterfowl and of course the hardest duck to get up to four months of age the Call. Thanks for your input and future advice. BOB

FRM GAME BIRD PELLETS

FRM Game Bird Pellets is a complete game bird feed and should be fed to growing birds as their sole ration.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude Protein, Min. 20.00%
Crude Fat, Min. 3.00%
Crude Fiber, Max. 12.00%

INGREDIENTS:
Corn Meal, Wheat Middlings, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Soybean Meal, Poultry By Product Meal, Dried Whey Product, Animal Fat Stabilized with B.H.A. (a preservative), Limestone, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Yeast Culture, Dried Streptococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Brewers Dried Yeast and Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Zinc Methionine, DL-Methionine, Ethoxyquin, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, D-Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin K Supplement, Magnesium Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate and Sodium Selenite



FRM GAME BIRD BREEDER CRUMBLES

Breeder Birds -This is a complete feed. Start feeding as the only feed at least 30 days before the breeding season and continue as long as eggs are being used for hatching.

Growing Breeders -After 14 weeks on F-R-M Game Bird Grower, birds may be fed F-R-M Game Bird Breeder Crumbles with free choice F-R-M Scratch Feed as an economy measure. The grain must be discontinued 30 days before the breeding season begins.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude Protein, Min. 20.00%
Crude Fat, Min. 3.00%
Crude Fiber, Max. 7.00%


INGREDIENTS:
Corn Meal, Soybean Meal, Wheat Middlings, Poultry By Product Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Whey Product, Animal Fat Stabilized with B.H.A. (a preservative), Limestone, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Yeast Culture, Dried Streptococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Brewers Dried Yeast and Dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Zinc Methionine, DL-Methionine, Ethoxyquin, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, D-Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin K Supplement, Magnesium Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate and Sodium Selenite.

FRM OSTRICH GROWER/MAINTENANCE PELLETS

Feed Ostrich Grower/Maintenance Pellets beginning at 4 weeks of age to birds selected for breeding or slaughter. Feed based on growth and grazing availability until birds achieve 80% of adult body weight. This feed can also be used as a maintenance diet for adult non-breeding birds. This feed can be fed free-choice or restricted to Ostrich on pasture.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude Protein, Min. 16.00%
Crude Fat, Min. 4.00%
Crude Fiber, Max. 7.00%


INGREDIENTS:
Corn Meal, Soybean Meal, Wheat Middlings, Poultry By Product Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Animal Fat preserved with BHA (a preservative), Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Yeast Culture, Methionine Hydroxy Analogue, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Choline Chloride, Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin, Biotin, Folic Acid, Vitamin K Supplement, Thiamine, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Ethoxyquin, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Zinc Oxide, and Calcium Iodate.

http://frmfeeds.com/80712/97212.html



This is the link to all thier game bird feed they sell.

Darn IT! I typed almost a full page reply only to find that I had been logged off. Lost and gone forever! I am going to do all my replies off line where I can't lose them and can use a spell checker. I'll try to reply in the morning, darn it is morning already. I'll be back!

[goosedragon]

This is pretty much what I lost last night,and intended to add to your post.
Thanks for the kind words Bob!
First I must state that I have NEVER raised a Call. I have a mental problem that tells me that tiny ducks should look like real ducks not Rubber Duckies. I do have respect for Call breeders, to skate along that edge between tiny and reproduction disabled, to reproduce the Required Deformities called for by the type is truly amazing but not something I would want to spend my time on.
Nutrition is a different subject, I love the feeds offered by Flint River Mills from reading the Analysis and Ingredient statements, alfalfa, poultry byproducts, animal fats, whey, You just don’t see much of these anymore. All those fermentation products should be wonderful sources of micro-nutrients that make the difference between good and great bird condition.
I have access to Southern State waterfowl pellets 20%, that and oats make up most of my feed bill though I do make some additions. I start with a medicated starter and supplement that with a game bird flight conditioner crumble for the extra Niacin and Protein. I sprinkle old fashioned oatmeal and grass clippings on the top of that from day one. I think the color contrast gets them pecking at their feed earlier. Like their natural parents I try to get them out on grass as soon as the weather here in NC permits, just short periods at first with shade and wind protection. The other reason for oatmeal is that oats are going to be their main grain supplement and I find that they turn up their bills at it if you try to start later. They stay on the starter ration until the first sign of wing development. Then I cut the feed with oats to a calculated 15% protein until the wings are developed. The first year I didn’t and got sick of catching and taping their wings in place. No angel wing after I learned to cut their protein back.
They always catch be by surprise with the first eggs. My breeder ration uses a game bird product with animal protein sources listed early on the label as well as the pellets and oats. Oyster shell free choice in a separate dish. I have some doubt that the breeder ration is optimum but it works for me since I am not selling hatching eggs and just want a few good birds to increase my flock or to give away.
That’s pretty much my program except for the grazing. I am a firm believer in grazing and I would free range if I could. Weekdays they get turned loose at 5 PM and graze until dusk most weekends they spend most of the day on graze. In my NC climate there is some graze year around with the best in the spring and fall. Feeding time is at day’s end except in the winter when I will slip them some morning feed. That’s it, you have great feeds to work with and your program sounds much like mine. I hope this was some help. ~gd

[Robert Blosl]

Thanks Goose Dragon so glad to hear from you and to learn that you got waterfowl back on your property. I was looking on the ground this moarning and saw a bag of feed I have been giving my baby call ducks and it only had 17 % protein. It did not take much to figure out how to take 12% protein and mix with 17% protein to get my 14% rataion or mixture for the young ducks when their wings where growing out. Many felt that my problem with angle wings was genetic but in my heart I felt it was the climate of heat and humidiy and the high protein that made the wing flight feather shoot out so fast their muscle and tissues in thier wings could not support the fast growth. Its almost like me from my junior year to senior year in the summer I grew five inches. I could not run like I did or as fast when I was shorter. I grew to fast for my body and it really hurt me in my senior year in sports. Same thing seems to happen with thier wings. I am glad you like the ingredients of the FRM feed. The fellow that owns the mill and mixes the feed is a straigh shooter who cares about his customers. I am told he is brilliant mixing cattle and horse feed. So far I might as well use this feed and try to find a more friendly method of weakening the protein down. For those who read this thread when goose dragon and Evy write something you take it to the bank when it comes to waterfowl. Goose Dragon I love Rouen Ducks and I love to let them Free Range but this is not the time or place for me to raise them down here in the deep south. So I hope with the little gray calls I can learn how to breed the mallard color pattern and some day have some Rouens and not screw up their color. Thanks again for your advice. It paid off this year from what you told me to do the last time I contacted you. Bob

One question I offten ask myself is how much of the protein can a duck or chicken absorb and what percent pops out on the ground in manure that they can not digest. Sometimes I think we over dose our birds with to much protein. In body building in young men you can only absorb so much protein in your body to develope muscle. Some say you can bulk up thirty or fourty pounds of mass but when you go on a diet befor a body builders competition you only gained about 5 lbs per year of pure muscle. In order to get a great looking body it would take about five years of training and diet to reach it. Many spend thousands of dollors in suppliments and protein and it may be a waist of money. Has anyone wrote on what a duck or chicken can absorb from thier diet?

FRM START 'N' GROW CRUMBLES MEDICATED

A complete feed medicated to prevent Coccidiosis in chicks and pullets. Feed as the sole ration.

Active Drug Ingredient: Amprolium...... 0.0125%


GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:


Crude Protein, Min. 17.00%
Lysine, Min. 0.90%
Methionine, Min. 0.35%
Crude Fat, Min. 3.00%
Crude Fiber, Max. 5.00%
Calcium, Min. 0.95%
Calcium, Max. 1.05%
Phosphorus, Min. 0.45%
Salt, Min. 0.30%
Salt, Max. 0.40%

INGREDIENTS:
Corn Meal, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Meal, Poultry By Product Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Whey Product, Animal Fat stabilized with BHA (a preservative), Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Ground Limestone, Salt, L-Lysine, Methionine Hydroxy Analog, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Choline Chloride, D-Pantothenic Acid, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ethoxyquin (a preservative), Manganous Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, and Calcium Iodate.

FEEDING INSTRUCTIONS: Feed continuously as the sole ration to starting chicks and replacement pullets.

[dakers]

I recently asked a similar question to two experienced waterfowl breeders. I'm raising one Toulouse gosling (my first gosling raising experience) with 3 Rouens. Gary Overton has raised Toulouse geese for many years. He cautions against too high of protein with the goslings because they grow so fast anyway; he says they can get leg problems if too high protein is fed. He uses non-medicated Purina Start & Grow. Similarly, Lou Horton - regarding ducks and geese ---Lou recommends/uses Purina Start & Grow for the 1st six weeks and then switch to 16% duck grower (Purina 16% duck grower is easily accessible here).

[Robert Blosl]

Thanks Dough for writing your comments as it made me go and look up the Purinia Products you use for your goose. However, I could not find the products so easy on thier web site and then hit the section for game bird feed and Holly Cow I hit the jackpot I have been looking for. They have a feed called Game Bird Maintance which is only used for birds that are not in the breeding pen and just running arround the yard and it is only 12.5% protein which will work perfect with my 17% FRM baby chick feed to mix to get my 14% feed for my baby calls to use when their wings start to shoot out.

Question for Goose Dragon. How many pounds of FRM Feed at 17% do I use and how many pounds of 12.5% game bird conditioner do I mix to get my 14% ratio?????

Thanks again Doug for your comments. What happens with a heavy goose like a Toulouse is if they grow their body to fast thier legs can not support the weight and they will become defective or maybe bull leged. Many of the old Goose Breeders rasied thier Geese on grass with just a little bit of feed. Of course the baby geese where feed a ration during thier time in the brooder box but when they got out on Free Range they had to keep a eye on them. This is what I learned from a Famous Toulouse Breeder from Minn. Her name was Maxine McKeebe I think. She was the grand lady of Dulap Toulouse Geese back then and was going to send me a pair of her geese to me as a junior for $50. plus freight on the train. Thats what we had back then called Rail Way Express. What a bargan however that was in 1964. Goose Dragon hope you can help me out on the math on how many pounds of each feed. Purnia was so nice they said they would send me two sacks from one region to my southern region distrubution center to help me out. Then next spring I will order some more in or around April when I hatch my calls. BOB

Game Bird Maintenance Chow® Product 5440
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein, not less than 12.5%
Crude Fiber, not less than 10.0%
Crude Fatr, not more than 2.5%
Lysine, not less than 0.41%
Methionine, not less than 0.20%
Calcium, not less than 0.5%
Calcium, not more than 1.0%
Phosphorus, not less than 0.5%
Salt, not less than 0.2%
Salt, not more than 0.7%
Contact local manufacturing plant for current feed tag.
Quality Controlled

http://www.purinamills.com/OurProducts.aspx?product=gamebird

[goosedragon]

Thanks Dough for writing your comments as it made me go and look up the Purinia Products you use for your goose. However, I could not find the products so easy on thier web site and then hit the section for game bird feed and Holly Cow I hit the jackpot I have been looking for. They have a feed called Game Bird Maintance which is only used for birds that are not in the breeding pen and just running arround the yard and it is only 12.5% protein which will work perfect with my 17% FRM baby chick feed to mix to get my 14% feed for my baby calls to use when their wings start to shoot out.

Question for Goose Dragon. How many pounds of FRM Feed at 17% do I use and how many pounds of 12.5% game bird conditioner do I mix to get my 14% ratio????? 66.5 pounds of the 12.5% game bird and 33.5 Pounds 17% FRM chick feed would give 100 pounds at 14%+ Protein. I say + because the numbers quoted are MINIMUM guaranteed analysis and they always run above that number to avoid problems with regulators. BTW I am lazy so I would just dump 2 50 pound bags of game bird and 1 50 pound bag of FRM, mix it together well and have a math perfect 14% feed!
Thanks again Doug for your comments. What happens with a heavy goose like a Toulouse is if they grow their body to fast thier legs can not support the weight and they will become defective or maybe bull leged. Many of the old Goose Breeders rasied thier Geese on grass with just a little bit of feed. Of course the baby geese where feed a ration during thier time in the brooder box but when they got out on Free Range they had to keep a eye on them. This is what I learned from a Famous Toulouse Breeder from Minn. Her name was Maxine McKeebe I think. She was the grand lady of Dulap Toulouse Geese back then and was going to send me a pair of her geese to me as a junior for $50. plus freight on the train. Thats what we had back then called Rail Way Express. What a bargan however that was in 1964. Goose Dragon hope you can help me out on the math on how many pounds of each feed. Purnia was so nice they said they would send me two sacks from one region to my southern region distrubution center to help me out. Then next spring I will order some more in or around April when I hatch my calls. BOB

Game Bird Maintenance Chow® Product 5440
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein, not less than 12.5%
Crude Fiber, not less than 10.0%
Crude Fatr, not more than 2.5%
Lysine, not less than 0.41%
Methionine, not less than 0.20%
Calcium, not less than 0.5%
Calcium, not more than 1.0%
Phosphorus, not less than 0.5%
Salt, not less than 0.2%
Salt, not more than 0.7%
Contact local manufacturing plant for current feed tag.
Quality Controlled

http://www.purinamills.com/OurProducts.aspx?product=gamebird ~gd

[Robert Blosl]

Thank you so much Goose Dragon . Will let you all know how this all turns out. I am ready for next year and hope others who have problems with angle wings or want a low protein food for your waterfowl will find this thread helpful. bob

[Robert Blosl]

Got my Purina Game Bird 12.2% maintance feed and I mixed 8 lbs of it to 7 lbs of the FRM Baby chick feed which should give me a 14% ratio for my baby calls at about two months of age when they develope thier wings. Mixed it up in a large bucket and the little young ducks loved it. So far this year 100 % pure normal wings. This is the first time in six years of rasing call ducks I am free of Angle Wings. Thanks to all who helped me. Now I am working on a new question and that is what Grey Calls do you keep and get rid of for color. Of my twenty years of study on Plymouth Rocks and Rhode Island Reds there is lots of articles on this subject for the beginner to read. When it comes to Color in Grey Calls I can not find a thing. Hopefully, with the help of Grey Call Breeders and Good Call Duck Judges I will have some thoughts on how it is done in print and in colored pictures for the beginner to read on how to really breed and cull Grey Calls correctly. Beleave me hatching and rasing call ducks is the hardest thing I ever learned how to do. Still learning and making mistakes but improving each and every year.

[Omega Blue Farms]

Bob,

When I first started showing, it was the bantam ducks that owned the local shows. We have about a dozen serious breeders competing heavily for a few points each year. Such extreme competition forced some serious attention to detail.

When I started showing my muscovies, I didn't have much competition and therefore got away with not worrying about the finer details of their feeding. They just ate whatever food was being fed to the other birds that they shared the pens with and we ate the few angle wings that popped up. They kept collecting points and we maintained a stocked freezer, it was a perfect match.

Then we invested in some high quality Africans, Campbells, and Cayugas and it was time to consider proper waterfowl feed. We moved to 16% duck/goose pellets and pasture. The angle wings really started popping up in my muscovies and was even effecting adults that had already been through 2 or more moults. I did observe that those ducks in the turkey pens eating 20% turkey grower feathered in much better and without the angle wings. Very confusing considering the very common belief that high protein causes angle wing.

While I believe there is a link between protein and angle wing, I don't belive the nutritional side of the argument is that neat and tidy. I suspect that there are other nutrients that play a larger role. Dave Holderead seemed to concure during his visit last fall.

Back to the bantam duck breeders. When the angle wing outbreak occurred and my show season was looking like a bust, I chatted to the bantam duck breeders and the common thread between them and goosedragon above is oats. Every successful gameplan involves oats. There is something in those oats that is key to sound wing development. We now feed a whole grain mixture of wheat, barley, and oats, combined with duck/goose pellets and plenty of greens and/or pasture to all waterfowl developing wing feathers. It gets the job done. It even reversed the trend on my adults and saved that show season. It even works in conjunction with the 20% turkey grower pellets.

The wheat and barley helps get new ducks to eat the whole oats. Plus, the wheat helps counteract the negative effects the oats have on creating sticky droppings. When we have a surplus of milk, we soak the grain overnight in a milk solution. As we approach show season, we cut back on the barley for the Campbells and Cayugas as it tends to fatten them and mess up their belly line.

Well that is where our learning curve is at. Good luck and thanks for your previous insight on Rhodies.

[Evy]

quote: The angle wings really started popping up in my muscovies and was even effecting adults that had already been through 2 or more moults.

I have never heard of or seen ''angel'' ( not angle ) wing appear in a mature bird. It's nothing to do with the feathers, but the fact that the joint has grown or been pulled out of place & has fused. That's why it's easy to ''cure'' if taped at a very young age, impossible after growth has hardened it. I've never seen a successfully taped wing reverse itself after a molt either.

Good luck with the oats. I've never been able to get a bantam duck to eat them except when they were left to sprout.

[Patrick]

I picked up on those same claims.

"Every successful gameplan involves oats." Really?!

If just "collecting points" is your thing, then I guess it's OK not to be so concerned at how well your birds are presented, when you're expecting little competition, but most serious exhibitors I know are proud to enter a bird that's the best that they have to offer, which may be potentially competitive at the class level and beyond, if there's no competition down lower. Otherwise, what's the point, unless you're one of those who likes to enter a bird with no competition, receive a first place, and proclaim that you have a SQ specimen just because you have a blue ribbon to "prove" it?

[Omega Blue Farms]

The only bantam ducks we have had on our farm have been australian spotted and mallards. Both have no problem eating whole oats.

One thing I like about muscovy is that they raise their young efficiently and therefore I spread the moms around the farm in various breeding pens so that I can keep track of pedigrees. This means that they grow up in pens full of adults birds. Right from the day they hatch, they start eating pellets and whole grains. I only make sure crumble is available for the first week to make sure they get up and running fine. Now, a week old muscovy is smaller than a call. They have smaller mouths and smaller throats. If muscovy duckling can eat whole oats, I'm sure a call can be trained.

Those that can't or refuse to? Well Darwin had the right idea.

You two are hilarious with how you respond to those who offer ideas and experiences that differ with yours. In case this has been overlooked, your hostility Patrick, is a reflection of yourself, not those you direct it towards.

However, I will respond to your bait.

Evy, the new feathers on a 14 pound drake can get very heavy, even on a mature wing. Especially when those wing feathers have been selected for their width. When I asked around, looking for a solution to the problem, those with actual well rounded waterfowl experience knew exactly what I was experiencing and recommended the whole oats. Their advice was sound and the problem corrected itself.

Patrick, my muscovies have gone undefeated since I started showing them in 2004. They have only lost the heavy duck class once in that time. They have been waterfowl champs several times, reserve Bird in show a couple of times and even Best Bird in Show. People like you have tried putting this cocky canuck in his place by importing top muscovy from the US. The imports have not been close to being competitive. In fact, my worst ducks that I enter simply to fill the classes place higher than the imports. So before you continue belittling my muscovy breeding efforts, you may want to do your homework. Find a single modern day muscovy breeder who has collected as many muscovy points as Omega Blue Farms since 2004. In fact, while you are at it, find an APA breeder of any breed that is keeping pace with OBF. You will be hard pressed.

Better yet, find a single APA judge who has seen OBF muscovies and felt they were not worthy of the championship points they have earned. There are lots of APA judges that have evaluated them they are spread across the US and Canada. You will be hard pressed.

So when I share my poultry experiences, those experiences come with success and undeniable results. If you want to effectively challange them, I suggest putting as much effort into your breeding programs as you do attacking those online you disagree with. Can't breed quality poultry while sitting at a computer keyboard.

Have a good day.

Wayne Osborne
Omega Blue Farms,
Heritage Breed Conservation Farm
Qualicum Beach, BC, Canada

[Patrick]

The only bantam ducks we have had on our farm have been australian spotted and mallards. Both have no problem eating whole oats.

One thing I like about muscovy is that they raise their young efficiently and therefore I spread the moms around the farm in various breeding pens so that I can keep track of pedigrees. This means that they grow up in pens full of adults birds. Right from the day they hatch, they start eating pellets and whole grains. I only make sure crumble is available for the first week to make sure they get up and running fine. Now, a week old muscovy is smaller than a call. They have smaller mouths and smaller throats. If muscovy duckling can eat whole oats, I'm sure a call can be trained.

Those that can't or refuse to? Well Darwin had the right idea.

You two are hilarious with how you respond to those who offer ideas and experiences that differ with yours. In case this has been overlooked, your hostility Patrick, is a reflection of yourself, not those you direct it towards.

However, I will respond to your bait.

Evy, the new feathers on a 14 pound drake can get very heavy, even on a mature wing. Especially when those wing feathers have been selected for their width. When I asked around, looking for a solution to the problem, those with actual well rounded waterfowl experience knew exactly what I was experiencing and recommended the whole oats. Their advice was sound and the problem corrected itself.

Patrick, my muscovies have gone undefeated since I started showing them in 2004. They have only lost the heavy duck class once in that time. They have been waterfowl champs several times, reserve Bird in show a couple of times and even Best Bird in Show. People like you have tried putting this cocky canuck in his place by importing top muscovy from the US. The imports have not been close to being competitive. In fact, my worst ducks that I enter simply to fill the classes place higher than the imports. So before you continue belittling my muscovy breeding efforts, you may want to do your homework. Find a single modern day muscovy breeder who has collected as many muscovy points as Omega Blue Farms since 2004. In fact, while you are at it, find an APA breeder of any breed that is keeping pace with OBF. You will be hard pressed.

Better yet, find a single APA judge who has seen OBF muscovies and felt they were not worthy of the championship points they have earned. There are lots of APA judges that have evaluated them they are spread across the US and Canada. You will be hard pressed.

So when I share my poultry experiences, those experiences come with success and undeniable results. If you want to effectively challange them, I suggest putting as much effort into your breeding programs as you do attacking those online you disagree with. Can't breed quality poultry while sitting at a computer keyboard.

Have a good day.

Wayne Osborne
Omega Blue Farms,
Heritage Breed Conservation Farm
Qualicum Beach, BC, Canada

Cocky Canuck, I like that. How about Hypocritical Highlander?

The tone of your posts differs little from mine. The difference is that you frequently resort to unfounded speculation, and unlikely absolutes, as well as childish attacks at anyone who dares to question your claims. I've never seen or heard of angel wing occuring in a previously normal adult duck, except due to rare traumatic injury. I've also never heard of it correcting itself with diet, once the wing joint is fully developed. If your experiences are different, so be it, but questioning what I've never known to occur is not a personal attack on you. I am interested in this adult onset angel wing that seems to occur in your stock. It seems to be a very rare condition. Maybe we could learn something from you, if it ever occurs in our inferior stock down here.

You seem to have a knack for changing slightly your descriptions of things to suit your argument. Your first post said that your adult muscovies developed angel (angle) wing. Now you seem to be describing dropped or lazy wing. Two different things. Not my fault if you either don't know the difference, or don't present your explanation clearly enough to lessen confusion.

I didn't realize that your results are undeniable. In that case, I shouldn't have questioned them, obviously. It came as news to me also that you are the premier breeder, over all other breeds. That does say it all.

[goosedragon]

I was thinking of suggesting that the problem was Dropped wing, which muscovies will often display to make themselves look larger even when they aren't with new feathers, but reconsidered when I realized I would be dealing with two of the most puffed up birds on this board (cc & hh). Can't brag on my points, don't Show, just an old retired waterfowl raiser that noticed that my muscovy drakes would appear to be bigger than my medium geese when it came to a face off, and they did it by holding their wings slightly away from their body and letting them droop. Now it is my turn to get talked down to from the experts of the method.

[Evy]

I was thinking of suggesting that the problem was Dropped wing, which muscovies will often display to make themselves look larger even when they aren't with new feathers, but reconsidered when I realized I would be dealing with two of the most puffed up birds on this board (cc & hh). Can't brag on my points, don't Show, just an old retired waterfowl raiser that noticed that my muscovy drakes would appear to be bigger than my medium geese when it came to a face off, and they did it by holding their wings slightly away from their body and letting them droop. Now it is my turn to get talked down to from the experts of the method.

You're right, GD. They also tend to drag when they're growing in & full of blood. Woodduck youngsters all look like that when they first feather out but it always corrects itself. You're also right calling it ''dropped'' wing. Some say ''slipped''. If birds have room to stretch & flap, most eventually pick them up & are fine. Those that don't because of protein problems, never do. In heavy breeds of ducks & geese, protein problems, rapid growth, as often manifest themselves as leg deformities. Likewise in lg. breed dogs.

[Omega Blue Farms]

If either of you believe that Robert is not asking about what is officially termed "slipped wing" or "twisted wing" AND that "angel wing" is a distinctly different deformity than the twisted version of slipped wing, then by all means produce a recognized and widely published definition that clarifies a distinction between the terms.

All my readings suggest that angel wing is nothing more than slang for "slipped wing".

BTW, keep up the name calling Patrick, it looks good on you.

[ges]

I when I realized I would be dealing with two of the most puffed up birds on this board (cc & hh).

GD - my limited time on this board would suggest that you are correct with that statement. (grinning)

[Evy]

If either of you believe that Robert is not asking about what is officially termed "slipped wing" or "twisted wing" AND that "angel wing" is a distinctly different deformity than the twisted version of slipped wing, then by all means produce a recognized and widely published definition that clarifies a distinction between the terms.

All my readings suggest that angel wing is nothing more than slang for "slipped wing".

BTW, keep up the name calling Patrick, it looks good on you.

Holderread in his " Wing Disorders in Waterfowl'' refers to Angel wing as Twisted wing & describes it as the flight feathers being held perpendicular ( at right angles ) to the body, very rarely occuring in adult birds. He refers to a Slipped wing as Lazy wing & describes it as drooping rather than held up tight to the body. Most of us don't have a problem with interchanging the terms as long as the term fits the condition.

[MattL]

Kids, play nice now!

[Robert Blosl]

.
This thread is getting some distance as I usually do when I ask a question. I hope others will respond to my thread on Gray Call Defects. In Hold reads book does he say anything about defects in Grays or Mallards or Rouen’s? On the Angle wing to me it’s a wing that kind of flips over and then the wing fixes its self in a manner that will never rotate back because of the weight of the wing feathers. I have seen slipped wings in chickens and a few ducks its just like a lazy wing that will not fold up neatly like a normal birds wing. Under the fit of the fittest principle I would not use such a bird as a breeder. I had a call duck drake last year that I almost screwed up on and he had a angle wing very mild. I shipped him to a friend in Oregon to mate to two of his best Gray Call Females from Arts line and not one of his off spring had angle wings. He was my best Gray Call Drake of the year for Type. I am enjoying the new Purina 12.5% Game Bird Conditioner and when I got the bill for the special order of two bags it my feed store they only charged me $14. for a 50 lb bag. I was planning on $17. as that is what a feed store up North was charging their customers. I am going to order next year FRM Game Bird Crumbles instead of Pellets its easier to mix with the Purina Conditioner as it comes in a crumble.
Thanks to all of you for helping me on this issue, when you live so far south like I do its hard to get feed like many of you get in the mid west and the North East States. What we have to do is brain storm with others to figure a way to over come a problem.

For the record their are slipped wings that drop downward and do not fold back up like a the standard shows us and angle wings that flip over and look cock eyed. One day I will have a web page with pictures of what they look like for the novice and that will help the new folks getting into the hobby. Education for the beginner and our juniors is the key to keeping them in our hobby. If no one will help you or mentor you can give up in a hurry. With the Plymouth Rock Fanciers Club that’s what we strive to do and its paid off as we have about 170 members and we teach every issue of our Newsletter how to breed for color or how we breed for success by our master breeders. At least years down the road a new beginner can ask one of the old timers is thier a article on how to breed the Buff, Barred or Silver Penciled or Columbian Color Pattern and we can say yes back in 2009 the leaders printed articles in their Newsletter on how it is to be done. Let me send you a copy of the article for you to read and learn buy. Thats what I am trying to do with the Grey Calls for the beginner who will be taking up this breed years from now.

I saw some of the comments other than the Angle-slipped wing and it reminded me of the famous man from California Rodney King. When he said. CANT WE JUST GET ALONG.

Thanks every buddy for your help and thanks Al Gore for inventing the Internet. If I did not have this tool I would never found the Purina Game Bird Conditioner and have fanciers and breeders who could help me.

[goosedragon]

Does anyone know (or care) where the term Angel Wing came from? The wing of a bird with the condition sticks out at ANGLE, they look nothing like a ANGEL to me. Still angel wing seems to be the educated choice for the condition.
Bob, look up Rodney King (try Wikipedia) he was famous but he didn't say exactly what you quoted. This was after his actions indirectly caused 3 days of riots that resulted in 53 deaths and roughtly a billion dollars of damage. His famous statement was an attempt to stop the riots and restore order.

Al Gore did not invent the Internet, some people claimed that he attempted to claim credit for inventing it when he said his support helped it to grow.

MattL, I have often thought that your signature came very close to being an ad for your judging services.

Grouchy today, thunderstorms disturbed my sleep.~gd

[MattL]

Nope, turn down way more jobs than I take GD. Maybe I need to change it.

[Callduckwoman]

I came to TPC today after an absence of 2 years or more. I am thinking of finding a good Call drake and raising some ducks again in a small way.

I thought this would be the place to refresh my memory about feed for the ducklings and to remind myself about angel wing, sticky eye and all that stuff. I guess I will go ahead and try it again this year in spite of the difficulties.

However, reading this thread - and this is the only thread I have read today - also reminds me why I haven't been here in over 2 years. Same old same old.

[goosedragon]

I came to TPC today after an absence of 2 years or more. I am thinking of finding a good Call drake and raising some ducks again in a small way.

I thought this would be the place to refresh my memory about feed for the ducklings and to remind myself about angel wing, sticky eye and all that stuff. I guess I will go ahead and try it again this year in spite of the difficulties.

However, reading this thread - and this is the only thread I have read today - also reminds me why I haven't been here in over 2 years. Same old same old.Might I point out (without upsetting you more) that the key word in your post is OLD?This thread was last posted to in AUGUST and I can only think of one thread since then that was this 'spirited' (heck I even mentioned that I was grumpy due to lack of sleep) sometimes I wish the current posts were a little more spirited but that is just me. I still think the information here is some of the best available and it doesn't hurt to get all sides when there is a real difference of opinion. Showmen have egos, read a few more threads before you give up on this site. If it is no go, it was nice of you to drop in.