New Chicks Update

[AgentJEM]

Hi, Everyone!

I just wanted to give you all an update on my new chooks! They're doing very nicely, just celebrated their 1 week birthday, yesterday. One did die from unknown causes, but the others are doing nicely.

One thing that is bothering me is that the Buff Orpingtons (being a Standard breed) are significantly larger than the Silkies (obviously, because Silkies are Bantams) but one of the Orp chicks just isn't growing... he's the same size as the silkie chicks and all of the other orps are twice their size!!! Do you think this little one just isn't thriving, or do I have a Orpington Bantam? lol

[ritterhahn]

English is not my primary language, but what the bloody h*ll is a ‘chook’? And do fowl have birthdays?

“One thing that is bothering me is that the Buff Orpingtons (being a Standard breed) are significantly larger than the Silkies (obviously, because Silkies are Bantams)” -- Why is the size difference a problem only now that you have the birds? If you looked up your breeds before you got them, you’d know there’s quite a size difference between a proper Orpington and an American-type Silkie.

As to the Orpington chick that is smaller than the rest, the first thing to consider is the source of the chicks. If you got them from an established breeder that breeds to standard, then this chick is an anomaly – a bit of a surprise, as well-bred birds of established varieties from good breeders do not usually show huge differences in type, but one week is far too early to be worrying about anything other than really obvious defects. If you intend carrying on breeding these birds for show, I suggest you divide up your Orpingtons and Silkies soon – you can better care for and evaluate them if they have separate enclosures. For starters, watch that little Oprington – he sounds like a cull, but let it grow out. The biggest mistakes new breeders make is in evaluating and culling their birds. Look again at six weeks and make your decision, if this is your first time filling a breeding pen. Asking advice from breeders experienced with the variety never hurts either.

On the other hand, in informal flocks you will see some variation in size in chicks over a breeding season – natural where varieties are mixed or where phenotype is not a concern for the owner.

If these chicks came from hatchery or a backyard flock, your birds fall under the ‘informal’ category and variation is to be expected. After source comes husbandry: if it is eating well and is active, is raised in proper brooder facilities with good food and fresh water, you have a hatchery ‘Orpington’ as one would expect. If it turns out later to be a pullet, she should lay just fine (again, if healthy); if a cockerel, and you have designs on eating it, fatten him up and he will be a ‘Cornish game hen!’

Good luck,

Richard

[Patrick]

If these chicks came from hatchery or a backyard flock, your birds fall under the ‘informal’ category


I like this designation. It's more appropriate than the term "pet quality", which some people like to use to identify their birds which are neither show nor commercial types. It's understandable how they would refer to their birds using terms associated with the only other animals with which they're familiar, dogs and cats, but poultry are livestock, not pets.

[ritterhahn]

I had to scratch the head a bit on that one, I confess. I considered ‘standard-bred’ and ‘non standard-bred’, but ‘standard’ could be confusing to some as it is equivocal, referring both to breed standard and as a designation of size. Borrowed ‘informal’ from gardening!

‘Pet quality’ seems derogatory to me, and as you say, I don’t think that chickens are pets. Doesn’t mean we cannot be fond or proud of our birds, just that ‘pet’ conjurours up images of the family dog or cat, and the increasingly bizarre (in my opinion), anthropomorphic attitude that seems a disservice to cat or dog. Used to be a dog was a companion in the home or a colleague in barn and field, or both…

I have seen in my area some birds really beautiful in plumage and vigour – clear that they are well cared for, are a delight to see. They are in no way up to the standard for a variety – indeed, some are of no variety I can make out, but to call these birds ‘pet quality’ when they are in better condition than a fair few I have seen at some local shows just seems wrong. One doesn’t have to be in exhibition poultry to be ‘serious’ about chickens.

The craze for keeping chickens in the back garden is really gathering momentum locally. There is at least one posh garden centre in the area that sells pre-fab coops and runs as well as offering hens for sale ($40.oo per bird), and even keeps a knowledgeable ‘chicken expert’ on staff to give advice on their care. A retired physician on the edge of a suburb was interviewed in the inevitable semi-monthly news paper article on ‘city chickens’ – he comments that he has had trouble meeting demand for hens, which he sells for $50.oo apiece (how can they claim the economy is to blame when a designer coop and a few birds would leave little change out of $500?). Whether this is a return to keeping birds in back gardens or a fad (I fear the latter), it seems clear it is the overly sentimental, ‘back to nature’, or the curious/clueless but very enthusiastic that are gaining the attention of the media. The spokesmen are most often those who are making a profit on the birds.

It would be nice if people experienced with raising chickens could somehow contribute to this rapidly expanding outer fringe – could be a means of introducing new blood to the ranks of exhibitors; at the least sparing the poor birds from being dressed up for tea parties. A personal peeve: almost every article mentions bans on keeping cocks because of noise and to discourage cock fighting. It is always written as if a cock among the hens at least infers something illegal…

[goosedragon]

I had to scratch the head a bit on that one, I confess. I considered ‘standard-bred’ and ‘non standard-bred’, but ‘standard’ could be confusing to some as it is equivocal, referring both to breed standard and as a designation of size. Borrowed ‘informal’ from gardening!

‘Pet quality’ seems derogatory to me, and as you say, I don’t think that chickens are pets. Doesn’t mean we cannot be fond or proud of our birds, just that ‘pet’ conjurours up images of the family dog or cat, and the increasingly bizarre (in my opinion), anthropomorphic attitude that seems a disservice to cat or dog. Used to be a dog was a companion in the home or a colleague in barn and field, or both…

I have seen in my area some birds really beautiful in plumage and vigour – clear that they are well cared for, are a delight to see. They are in no way up to the standard for a variety – indeed, some are of no variety I can make out, but to call these birds ‘pet quality’ when they are in better condition than a fair few I have seen at some local shows just seems wrong. One doesn’t have to be in exhibition poultry to be ‘serious’ about chickens.

The craze for keeping chickens in the back garden is really gathering momentum locally. There is at least one posh garden centre in the area that sells pre-fab coops and runs as well as offering hens for sale ($40.oo per bird), and even keeps a knowledgeable ‘chicken expert’ on staff to give advice on their care. A retired physician on the edge of a suburb was interviewed in the inevitable semi-monthly news paper article on ‘city chickens’ – he comments that he has had trouble meeting demand for hens, which he sells for $50.oo apiece (how can they claim the economy is to blame when a designer coop and a few birds would leave little change out of $500?). Whether this is a return to keeping birds in back gardens or a fad (I fear the latter), it seems clear it is the overly sentimental, ‘back to nature’, or the curious/clueless but very enthusiastic that are gaining the attention of the media. The spokesmen are most often those who are making a profit on the birds.

It would be nice if people experienced with raising chickens could somehow contribute to this rapidly expanding outer fringe – could be a means of introducing new blood to the ranks of exhibitors; at the least sparing the poor birds from being dressed up for tea parties. A personal peeve: almost every article mentions bans on keeping cocks because of noise and to discourage cock fighting. It is always written as if a cock among the hens at least infers something illegal…
Could be because it is illegal! You don't have to know anything about a subject to pass a stupid law. Our local morons passed a law that the keeping of cocks is illegal in a mostly rural NC county that produced 13 million meat type chickens last year! They quickly learned of the error they had made and admended the law, but they haven't heard the end of it yet and we expect some new faces come election day.

[ritterhahn]

So far, several cities in my area allow cocks and hens, acting against specific persons if noise, smell, etc. become an issue. One does not allow ANY chickens; of those with specific restrictions, a small number of hens alone is permitted. My point was merely that to many here a cock would only be kept for fighting.

"You don't have to know anything about a subject to pass a stupid law." -- the perfect description of why some laws ARE stupid.

Richard

[Patrick]

I had to scratch the head a bit on that one, I confess. I considered ‘standard-bred’ and ‘non standard-bred’, but ‘standard’ could be confusing to some as it is equivocal, referring both to breed standard and as a designation of size. Borrowed ‘informal’ from gardening!

‘Pet quality’ seems derogatory to me, and as you say, I don’t think that chickens are pets. Doesn’t mean we cannot be fond or proud of our birds, just that ‘pet’ conjurours up images of the family dog or cat, and the increasingly bizarre (in my opinion), anthropomorphic attitude that seems a disservice to cat or dog. Used to be a dog was a companion in the home or a colleague in barn and field, or both…

I have seen in my area some birds really beautiful in plumage and vigour – clear that they are well cared for, are a delight to see. They are in no way up to the standard for a variety – indeed, some are of no variety I can make out, but to call these birds ‘pet quality’ when they are in better condition than a fair few I have seen at some local shows just seems wrong. One doesn’t have to be in exhibition poultry to be ‘serious’ about chickens.

The craze for keeping chickens in the back garden is really gathering momentum locally. There is at least one posh garden centre in the area that sells pre-fab coops and runs as well as offering hens for sale ($40.oo per bird), and even keeps a knowledgeable ‘chicken expert’ on staff to give advice on their care. A retired physician on the edge of a suburb was interviewed in the inevitable semi-monthly news paper article on ‘city chickens’ – he comments that he has had trouble meeting demand for hens, which he sells for $50.oo apiece (how can they claim the economy is to blame when a designer coop and a few birds would leave little change out of $500?). Whether this is a return to keeping birds in back gardens or a fad (I fear the latter), it seems clear it is the overly sentimental, ‘back to nature’, or the curious/clueless but very enthusiastic that are gaining the attention of the media. The spokesmen are most often those who are making a profit on the birds.

It would be nice if people experienced with raising chickens could somehow contribute to this rapidly expanding outer fringe – could be a means of introducing new blood to the ranks of exhibitors; at the least sparing the poor birds from being dressed up for tea parties. A personal peeve: almost every article mentions bans on keeping cocks because of noise and to discourage cock fighting. It is always written as if a cock among the hens at least infers something illegal…

I agree with just about all of it. I miss the ability to insert replies after specific sections of a quote on this board.

"Informal" is a more appropriate way to put it, especially to avoid insulting those who are serious, yet do not have exhibition flocks or standard-bred birds, or who do not consider livestock as pets.

The craze is catching on here too. Some in exhibition circles have speculated that it will result in some of them joining the fancy as serious exhibitor breeders. I was hopeful at first that they were right, but I'm just not seeing it. Like you say, I fear too that it's only a fad. Let's face it, most people at least know what a chicken is. They have the same opportunities to become introduced to them as we all did, and the ability to progress to exhibition if they choose. I see that most of these CCVE's (curious/clueless but very enthusiastic) choose not too. They seem to me to choose to remain in their own little happy world of dress up, chooks, boys and girls, childish exclaimations of delight like "yippee", and the endless use of those stupid emoticons. I see some of them asking the right questions, but not of the right people. If you have a question about a law, don't you ask an attorney, read the law yourself to try to understand it, or ask the governing body who enforces it? You might mention it to your buddy who has similar interests, but are you going to bet that he's 100% correct before you act on that information, without at least verifying it? It amazes me how these people rely on the other CCVE's, often ignoring those who have the right answer. They refuse to ask the APA, ABA, or people here, or if they do, they go back to the other CCVE's, because they don't like the answer that they received. Heaven forbid they spend 10 bucks on a standard to get the facts on what their breed is supposed to look like. crazychickielady gave her a happy answer, with lots of smilies, so that's what she's going with.

In some cases, the CCVE's are starting to cause problems for serious breeders. In addition to representing the fancy as a haven for nut cases who talk to chickens, they're bringing unwanted attention from regulators in some areas. In Maine recently, the CCVE's, presumably trying to do the right thing, contacted the state en masse, inquiring about testing regulations for a swap. I'm not suggesting that anyone avoid testing, or try to get around the regs. Just the opposite, I feel that if I have to do it, then it's only fair that others follow the rules too. But in this case, instead of just listening to the good advice that they were given, that they need to be tested, they opened up a can of worms by calling about the requirements for the swap on such and such a date. The state became interested with so many inquiries, and is now showing up and swabbing birds, instead of just asking to see proof of testing. One of these CCVE's has what she claims is some sort of service dog, an animal that can't even walk on a leash, and she's showing up at swaps that prohibit dogs, trying to prove a point that they can't exclude her. Her qualifications are none, and the legitimacy of her service dog dubious, but she "knows" the law. As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid.

Experienced people have made attempts to contribute. If you quote a passage from the standard, or a rule from the APA by-laws, if you tell them that true free range is not sustainable and their birdies will be dead within a year, those are not happy answers, so they don't want to hear it. Cock = cockfighting. That's the way it is. Besides, that's such an.....unpleasant....... sounding word. We don't like to use it. They'd all be hyperventilating if they went to a dog show, with all those bitches running around.

[richbar]

AgentJEM, Getting back to your original question, it is impossible for us to determine if you have a bantam without seeing pictures of the bird. Many hatcheries will provide extra chicks with shipments and it is possible you have a bantam or some other breed. The bigger question is how is the chick doing? Is it eating, is it growing? Too often, people ask questions without providing enough information for anyone to help. As long as your chick is getting around fine, eating and drinking, I wouldn't be too concerned and I would assume that it is not the same breed/variety/size (bantam vs large fowl) as the others. Hope this helps.

[AgentJEM]

English is not my primary language, but what the bloody h*ll is a ‘chook’? And do fowl have birthdays?

“One thing that is bothering me is that the Buff Orpingtons (being a Standard breed) are significantly larger than the Silkies (obviously, because Silkies are Bantams)” -- Why is the size difference a problem only now that you have the birds? If you looked up your breeds before you got them, you’d know there’s quite a size difference between a proper Orpington and an American-type Silkie.

As to the Orpington chick that is smaller than the rest, the first thing to consider is the source of the chicks. If you got them from an established breeder that breeds to standard, then this chick is an anomaly – a bit of a surprise, as well-bred birds of established varieties from good breeders do not usually show huge differences in type, but one week is far too early to be worrying about anything other than really obvious defects. If you intend carrying on breeding these birds for show, I suggest you divide up your Orpingtons and Silkies soon – you can better care for and evaluate them if they have separate enclosures. For starters, watch that little Oprington – he sounds like a cull, but let it grow out. The biggest mistakes new breeders make is in evaluating and culling their birds. Look again at six weeks and make your decision, if this is your first time filling a breeding pen. Asking advice from breeders experienced with the variety never hurts either.

On the other hand, in informal flocks you will see some variation in size in chicks over a breeding season – natural where varieties are mixed or where phenotype is not a concern for the owner.

If these chicks came from hatchery or a backyard flock, your birds fall under the ‘informal’ category and variation is to be expected. After source comes husbandry: if it is eating well and is active, is raised in proper brooder facilities with good food and fresh water, you have a hatchery ‘Orpington’ as one would expect. If it turns out later to be a pullet, she should lay just fine (again, if healthy); if a cockerel, and you have designs on eating it, fatten him up and he will be a ‘Cornish game hen!’

Good luck,

Richard


Richard,

"Chook" is aussie slang for chicken, and yes, on my farm, fowl have birthdays.

I didn't need to look my birds up before I bought them, because I am very familiar with these breeds, having raised them for some time between grammar school and graduation high school. I'd say close to 10 years, so I am very familiar with these birds, amongst other breeds. I wasn't expecting show quality birds from my hatchery order... and have no issue with the size. My problem was that the one Orpington was significantly smaller than the other birds, even the Silkes.
Also, to answer some of your other points... I don't intend on "culling" my flock, as I'm not going to be showing these birds. I purchased the Orpingtons for the great brown eggs they lay, and being that I've raised them in the past, I really enjoy their look. The silkies I'm keeping for broodies, and for something a little exotic to have. They are seperated, and will remain that way. I plan on building some banty cages seperate from my egg layer coop. I think I've pretty much answered everything :)

[AgentJEM]

AgentJEM, Getting back to your original question, it is impossible for us to determine if you have a bantam without seeing pictures of the bird. Many hatcheries will provide extra chicks with shipments and it is possible you have a bantam or some other breed. The bigger question is how is the chick doing? Is it eating, is it growing? Too often, people ask questions without providing enough information for anyone to help. As long as your chick is getting around fine, eating and drinking, I wouldn't be too concerned and I would assume that it is not the same breed/variety/size (bantam vs large fowl) as the others. Hope this helps.

Thanks for bringing it back! I just posted in my last reply that the chick died, so I'm assuming it was, unfortunatly, sick. Which of course is part of raising poultry!