Cannibal Chickens

[chicken farmer]

i have some pullets that are killing each other and i dont know y. It is kind of gruesome how they do it. They pick out one pullet from the bunch and will pick all their insides out through the vent. I have no clue y they are doing this they get fresh feed and water twice daily, and arent overcrowded at all.

[Evy]

Are you positive they aren't crowded, buggy, are getting the correct feed ? They need a lot of room & things to do. It can start with just a spot of blood or boredom. If changing conditions doesn't help, debeaking may be the answer.

[jungle]

It seems very unlikely that they are not stressed out somehow. How many birds do you have in what size enclosure? Something is causing the hens to start after one of them and you need to figure out what it is.

[Patrick]

I agree. What exactly do you consider "arent overcrowded at all"? How many birds in what size area?

[chicken farmer]

they are in a 10 x 10 house with a yard out front. There are 60 of them. I just got some blu kote so ill see what that does

[Patrick]

No offense, but LMAO at that. In no stretch of the imagination could that be considered not to be overcrowded. Despite the oft quoted minimum space requirements listed in various places for chickens, you cannot ever expect birds to be kept in those conditions not to pick. Those minimum numbers are for most of the birds to survive and produce. They do not take into consideration feather condition or picking. Birds that are kept so crowded are usuallly debeaked as well. IMO, the blu kote won't help much at all with those numbers, unless you sprayed it all in their eyes, so that they can't see to pick. I would not consider keeping more than 1/10th that number in a 10 X 10 space, if I cared about feather condition or picking. Maybe twice that if you can deal with some birds with perpetually bare backs.

[Patrick]

I should add that those conditions, even if acceptable by the current minimum square footage required for commercial birds, whatever that is, are still overcrowding.

[jungle]

I am not trying to be a smart *** here at all when I ask if 60 hens can actually fit into a coop 10 x 10. I am just having a hard time picturing it. Patrick is absolutely correct in stating that a coop that size is not nearly big enough for that many birds- even to just roost at night. It doesn't matter how much space they have during the day if they are crammed into that space at night. It will also be extremely difficult to keep a coop that small clean with that number of hens. You really need to get more housing set up ASAP or cut WAY back on the number of birds being kept. Until you do that you will continue having these types of problems.

Richard

[ges]

how old are these "pullets" of yours? I'm hoping you are talking about 2 week old pullets....because as others have stated....they are way overcrowded if more than 3-4 weeks old.

[Patrick]

Neil should know the current recognized minimum space requirements for commercial loose housing layers, or whatever the correct term is, if he dares. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'm not surprised if it is much more than the 1.6 square feet per bird that these are currently allowed. Still, that is overcrowding by most standards, and at least the commercial guys know how to take precautions to prevent or at least mitigate picking and cannibalism.

[chicken farmer]

i guess just forget the whole thing, since Patrick knows everything. And the btw patrick the blu Kote helped a whole lot more than u did!!

[Pathfinders]

Chickenfarmer, despite Patrick's curmudgeonly ways, ;) he is quite correct, as others have stated as well.

You need to provide much more room for your birds. BlueKoat is not going to stop the problem, it's like trying to put a band aid on a broken leg. You need to change things, and soon.

How big is the "yard" for your birds? I would think that many birds would need at least a half an acre to roam, if not more, in order to be completely healthy. What breed are they? Are you letting them outside at first light? Do you not lock them up until it's dark and they're on the roost? Keeping 60 birds cooped up in a 10x10 coop is a bad idea unless it's only when it's dark and they are sleeping.

The other thing you haven't made clear is what kind of feed you are giving them. Is it a commercial food appropriate for their age? I hope you're not just feeding cracked corn or scratch, and the lack of protein in those would also encourage picking.

Bottom line, you need to give your birds much more space and ensure they have a good quality commercial feed right for their age (chick starter until about 4 or 5 months, depending on the breed, then layer ration with at least 16% protein after that.)

Best of luck with them.

[chicken farmer]

thank you pathfinders. from what youve said its the feed. i am feeding straight cracked corn. the pen is plenty big i know because i have raised 80 pullets a year in that pen and house since ive got chickens 5 years ago. what would you recomend for mixing with the corn would wheat and barley work, i want to keep feeding the corn. in past years i have fed just straight wheat screenings to them but i wanted to add more fat so i switched to corn. and please excuse my typing i ran through a barbed wire fence on a motorcycle and ripped my ha nd up. but thanx again pathfinders.

[Evy]

thank you pathfinders. from what youve said its the feed. i am feeding straight cracked corn. the pen is plenty big i know because i have raised 80 pullets a year in that pen and house since ive got chickens 5 years ago. what would you recomend for mixing with the corn would wheat and barley work, i want to keep feeding the corn. in past years i have fed just straight wheat screenings to them but i wanted to add more fat so i switched to corn. and please excuse my typing i ran through a barbed wire fence on a motorcycle and ripped my ha nd up. but thanx again pathfinders.

She gave you as good an answer as you can get, even if it's not the one you want. You can't do better than with a good commercial feed & plenty of room.

[chicken farmer]

ya i went right out and changed feed again back to what i used to feed, but like i said ive raised 80+ chickens at once in that brooder every year since i got the chickens.

[richbar]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and jump into this thread. One thing that sets the commercial industry apart from those of us who raise birds is that the commercial industry is only about making money. They raise birds genetically selected over many generations to grow quickly, to produce efficient meat and eggs. While a commercial broiler farm would provide .75 square feet of space for a broiler chicken, and a commercial egg layer kept in a cage has less space than that, it in no way is the appropriate amount of space for the breeds and types of birds that we raise. That said, if the 60 birds were kept in 100 square feet of space, and given adequate outside area, they could in fact have enough room, assuming that they spent most of their time outside and only came in to roost at night. Unfortunately, we do not know how much outside space the birds have and we are at best guessing.

That brings me to another point. Why in the world would you assume that cracked corn is the appropriate feed for your birds? Time and time again on this forum, the likes of Evy, Patrick and many others including myself have explained that birds need a proper ration in order to be healthy and productive. While many have stated that corn is not good for birds, that is not the case as most commercially prepared rations do contain corn, however, by itself, corn does not have all the nutrients that are required by poultry. It is especially deficient in protein, which by the way the birds can get by eating each other. Rations that are developed for chickens are designed to be fed as the only feed fed. When you mix in other ingredients, you dilute the nutrients in those rations and throw the balanced nature of the feed off.

I know commercially formulated diets are expensive and corn is cheaper, however if you are going to have birds and you cannot afford the feed, it is far better for you to not get the birds in the first place.

[jungle]

Chicken Farmer, you have been given information from some of the most experienced people on this forum. I am not sure what it is you are looking for at this point. If you still have a question then please provide much more detail about your husbandry. If you are satisfied that you know what the best course of action is then good luck.

[goosedragon]

May I point out to the menber of the richbar from DE that chickens were raised for many years in this country on free range and corn? They may not have thrived like modern birds, the losses were much greater than we would accept today, but they provided eggs and the occasional meal. The egg money was usually the source of my back-to-school shoes, clothing, and supplies. My father was a progressive, he provided chick starter to get them big enough so they could fend for themselves, and sometimes comercial feed during the worst of the winter. Other than that, they got served table scraps, and farm raised grain. Anything they could find for themselves was fair game. Times and breeds change but that was pretty much standard practice 60 years ago.

[chicken farmer]

i was feeding corn because someone i know that is an expert poultry raiser of 40+ years said that corn is all he ever raises them on. So i thought i would give it a try, and by the looks of it it isnt working too well. But the funny thing about this is i have been feeding corn to all my young birds this year, including five different pens which are seperated into pullets, fryer roosters, turkeys, and ducks and the pullets are the only ones killing each other, and i am raising all these birds the exact same way, and the pullets are the only ones that arent gaining weight well and killing each other. But i guess if there are any more recommendations to my problem i am happy to change.

[richbar]

Goosedragon, I don't want to get in an argument with you but you are also mentioning the fact that the corn was supplemented with table scraps and other farm raised grain. At the time, people were feeding the birds the best they knew how. In addition, many of those birds were free ranged (as you mentioned) to the point that they actually could go where ever they wanted on the farm, some falling prey to predators but still they had access to a much larger area and had access to insects which are also a large source of protein. Corn alone fed to birds confined to a 10 by 10 building with or without an attached enclosed lot of undetermined size doesn't provided the necessary nutrients to grow a pullet. The birds aren't growing because they are not being fed an adequate diet and they are feeding on each other because they are most likely overcrowded. Cannibalism can occur in overcrowded conditions even with a good feed, but I suspect that the housing conditions are part of the problem. I should also note that the birds we raise today are not the same genetically as the ones you refer to.

When the broiler industry started it took 26 weeks to grow a 2.5 pound bird. Now it is 6.5 weeks to grow a 5 pound bird. I know you know this but I'm putting this here for those who don't. The difference? genetics, husbandry changes and nutrition.

Chicken farmer, Corn alone isn't adequate for efficient growth for any of the species you are raising. I would suspect your growth rates are far less than what you've experienced in the past or the birds have adequate free range to make up the difference.

[chicken farmer]

they are the right size for there age and are perfectly healthy get table scraps and grass clippings at anytime available.

[annefoley]

I would like to add an experience we had with our Barred Plymouth Rock project at the fair this year. Our 4-Hers all got female chicks from the same hatchery shipment the first week in March. When the birds arrived back for the fair at the end of July, there was a wide range of sizes and levels of condition. One family (who were new to chickens) had fed corn exclusively because "some old farmer down the road told them that was all he fed". Those Barred Plymouth Rocks had wonderful yellow legs but that was all that was good about them. They were some of the smallest birds there and clearly had not prospered with the all-corn diet. It's great to romanticize the past, but not all old-timey wisdom is worth following.

[goosedragon]

Richbar, no argument I agree with just about every word you wrote, but you seem to tend to get in the trap of thinking there is only ONE right way to raise chickens. A lot depends on what you want the birds for; if you just want eggs or meat by all means follow the Commercial Factory farms (Good Luck on trying to get the birds with the proper genetics). I won’t even attempt to try to tell anybody how to raise birds for show. If you just want to have birds as cheaply as possible my father’s way may be best.

What did you mean by “that the birds we raise today are not the same genetically as the ones you refer to.”? I was referring to Jersey Giants and RIR plus a few bantams my father kept as pets, have their genetics changed much or were you thinking of Factory chickens?

AnneFoley our old-timey methods were never meant to win 4H shows, more to put money in our pockets and food on the table. If I could think of a surefire way to prevent cheating I would sponsor a 4H project to see who could produce birds at the cheapest out of pocket costs. That along with a presentation on the methods used would be worth seeing. BTW have you noticed that some of the old-timey methods are coming back in favor again? Pastured Poultry, grass fed beef, and of course Organic foods where hand labor and manure replaces pesticides and herbicides

[chicken farmer]

my reason for raising that many birds is huge demand for my eggs. and i am a freshman in high school, and will be moving out of the house in a little over four years. I know my birds are a little crammed together, but they grow and lay fine. And btw since i changed their diet i havent had any dead ones, and when ive seen pecking i spray blu kote and they dont pick.

[annefoley]

GD: Believe it or not, your idea for a cost per bird 4-H project has already been discussed in our county. I would also find it interesting to see the results of such a project! For those of us who have no way of purchasing cheap grains or growing it ourselves, commercial layer doesn't seem like such a bad thing. You are correct that old time methods are coming back. In our area we have a farm venture that is raising grass fed, free-range turkeys and chickens. Price is $80 for a average 20lb turkey and $14 for and average 4lb chicken.

[goosedragon]

GD: Believe it or not, your idea for a cost per bird 4-H project has already been discussed in our county. I would also find it interesting to see the results of such a project! For those of us who have no way of purchasing cheap grains or growing it ourselves, commercial layer doesn't seem like such a bad thing. You are correct that old time methods are coming back. In our area we have a farm venture that is raising grass fed, free-range turkeys and chickens. Price is $80 for a average 20lb turkey and $14 for and average 4lb chicken.
I never said that commercial layer feed was a bad thing, and just for the record I didn't raise birds the way my father did. One thing I was missing was the big dog that thought it was his right and duty to kill any four legged animal he found on his farm. Without the dog, losses from free ranging were too much for me to take.
Nor was it practical to raise my own grain on on a little six acre farm, I bought some directly in the field from other farmers which turned out to be a mistake because it hadn't been dried properly for storage. I'm in horse country, Horse people would buy the cheapest uncleaned oats at my feed store and then bring them back when they realized they weren't good enough for their horse. Feed stores can't sell opened bags except to tight wads like my self. Sometimes they were free other times I paid half price for them and the geese loved them.
And yes I know of a turkey ranch that sells free range birds but his demand is such that you need to order them in advance, he can't find enough help to process the birds at Thanksgiving and Christmas. When you pre order he asks when you want them and the size you want. It used to be a fixed $60/bird but that might have changed. Some want big old birds, others would rather have smaller birds

[jungle]

BTW have you noticed that some of the old-timey methods are coming back in favor again? Pastured Poultry, grass fed beef, and of course Organic foods where hand labor and manure replaces pesticides and herbicides

Another note about the pastured poultry... the birds are still getting far more nutrition from a biologically active "pasture" than they would be from a bag of corn and grass clippings in a pen. Kitchen scraps vary tremendously in nutritional value depending on whose kitchen they come from. I was not around then but I would guess that the kitchen scraps of the 1950's farmstead did not contain a whole lot of processed mac and cheese or hamburger helper but rather more vegetable, meat and baked good scrap. I can appreciate nostalgia and even the potential virtues of a more simple lifestyle but we must be sure that we are comparing apples to apples when discussing a more simple way of feeding our livestock.

[katschicks]

Raised chickens a few years. To me most folks miss a few things. All I feed is Purina feed. And have several that are penned and do not free range. When Purina went to the all natural vegetable protein my birds feather quality and weight went to heck. Switched to game bird feed and things got a lot better. Chickens need animal protein. Simple. If they get enough from insects and bugs fine. Just use some common sence how you raise your birds. Learn it with trying different ways to feed and keeping your birds. Something that works in New York may not work in Texas. Good luck. Rog

[chicken farmer]

ya. i realize that these birds arent getting all the nutrition they could be, but like i said they grow up to be big healthy birds.

[MKG]

I thought you said in your original post they were getting pecked to death.
Which is it? You have received some good information in this thread, now it is up to you to put it into practice.

[Evy]

I thought you said in your original post they were getting pecked to death.
Which is it? You have received some good information in this thread, now it is up to you to put it into practice.

We're dealing with a 13-14 yr. old, Mike. If you ever had one, you know they're often full of arguments & excuses rather than wanting to listen & learn. Regardless, it's a good thread & I hope others have benefited from it.

[Alice]

i have some pullets that are killing each other and i dont know y. It is kind of gruesome how they do it. They pick out one pullet from the bunch and will pick all their insides out through the vent. I have no clue y they are doing this they get fresh feed and water twice daily, and arent overcrowded at all.

when we have this problem we give them alot of crackleys. that is the cooked fat from hogs .when you cook it out for the lard

[richbar]

Hey Goosedragon, You really are reading a lot more into what I am saying. I happen to be a University professor, animal scientist and have raised birds for 37 years. Unlike many of my counterparts, I do believe that there is more than one way to skin a cat but considering this thread, only partial information was given in the beginning and in our oftentimes quick answers, we answer the obvious things first. Sort of like going to the doctor, the first diagnosis is going to be the most common ailment. If treatment doesn't work, we move on.

I am not opposed to more sustainable production methods however, we definitely know a whole lot more about nutrition today than we did in the good old days. There is also a big difference between feeding corn and feeding corn, free ranging and feeding table scraps which is what it seems we are being told now. The easiest, most efficient way to feed poultry is by using a commercial ration. It can be home mixed if you have the capabilities. That is the only way you are going to be sure to provide your birds with what they require scientifically. If you are willing to balance a ration, using corn, table scraps, grass clippings, etc. it becomes a crapshoot. Sure you may give them what they need, but you also might not. If you are willing to pay to have the corn, table scraps, grass clippings, etc. analyzed by a lab and then balance the ration, you will be doing just as good a job as the commercial ration makers. That said, there is also something to be said for cost effectiveness.

As feed prices have increased, it has thrown the entire ag community a big curve ball. Now everything that was expected may not work out when you push the pencil to the numbers. If it works for you, do it but it is critical to look everything over and make sure you know what is going on. Being a scientist, I am not one for testimonials. Show me the replicated research findings and then I'll believe. Replicated side by side comparisons are a good way for anyone, be they commercial producer or a hobbyist to learn which way of production is better. I've done it with different commercial feeds, but prefer the easier way of raising birds to feeding them tablescraps, grass clippings and corn, even though I'm not against anyone else who is willing to do that. It's just not for me and I hope other people test it out before they jump on that bandwagon because it takes more management than most hobbiest are willing to invest.

[goosedragon]

Hey richbar, maybe I am reading more into what you are saying, it won’t be the first time for me. Yes I know your credentials, my memory isn’t shot yet. While I am making concessions, I agree that working with what “chicken farmer” gave you on his cannibal chickens I might have suggested the same. It seemed to me that money was a factor, so I mentioned a way that he might get better results by using tried -and -true methods. It wasn’t until I mentioned free ranging and table scraps, that CF mentioned he did and added lawn clippings to the menu.
True the easiest, most efficient and cash intensive method is using a commercial ration. Again I want to point out that chickens were raised for decades without the modern scientific rations. How many breeds have lost the ability to live without them I don’t claim to know.
As for balanced rations, I produced them for 13 years for the canned pet food market. I was given the nutritional requirements for the animals, got the analysis from the suppliers, and it was my job to produce the least cost ration that met the nutritional requirements, and two others which were owner’s and pet’s acceptance. It is not good for sales if the owner opens the can and wants to upchuck or the pet leaves it in the dish while he eats his own poop in the yard. This does not provide me with superior knowledge in selection of table scraps or lawn clippings however LOL
I have assisted a few people from this board, who either mixed rations themselves or had a mill willing to work with them, to design rations for waterfowl. No one has complained about my rations but I suppose they might have been nibbled to death by ducks that demanded more animal protein in their rations. LOL I don’t really have testimonials and note in later post I said that I didn’t use my father’s farm methods on my little farmette either. All I was trying to say is that there isn’t just one right way to raise poultry. Can we agree on that?

[chicken farmer]

mgk. they are getting pecked to death, and i have been trying the suggestions from the posts i have received and thank you all because it is working very well. and evy i am not arguing i am answering questions so people can give me suggestions on how to handle this, and thank you for your posts and suggestions they have helped a lot

[richbar]

Goosedragon, Of course we can agree on that. I wish that more Universities would take a look at some of the older ways of raising livestock, not all of them were better or cheaper when you consider reduced growth rate, lower reproductive efficiency and predation, but many of the methods use would have some merit considering rising cost of inputs these days.

It is a shame the federal goverment won't look at encouraging more research on these methods as well for the smaller farmers out there. Big bucks controls Washington and if there isn't money to be made by some big corporation, then why do it. Enough soap boxing for one day. Rich

[goosedragon]

Goosedragon, Of course we can agree on that. I wish that more Universities would take a look at some of the older ways of raising livestock, not all of them were better or cheaper when you consider reduced growth rate, lower reproductive efficiency and predation, but many of the methods use would have some merit considering rising cost of inputs these days.

It is a shame the federal goverment won't look at encouraging more research on these methods as well for the smaller farmers out there. Big bucks controls Washington and if there isn't money to be made by some big corporation, then why do it. Enough soap boxing for one day. Rich

Here is another thing we agree on, my brother was an entomologist(Insects). Professor at a midwestern university (which will remain unnamed) most of his work was covered by grants funded by insecticide manufacturers directly or indirectly through governments. When his department moved on to modern Integrated Pest Management (IPM) an ecological approach with a main goal of significantly reducing or eliminating the use of pesticides, funding disapeared. (I wonder why?) He finished his studies, wrote up his results, and retired. The department is considerablely smaller than it used to be, no way to support the grad students that always do the bulk of research studies.

[Pathfinders]

There are any number of places you can find recipes for poultry food, although I will say the time/energy you spend mixing up same would be better spent just buying commercial feed. But you can Google "Make your own chicken feed" and find lots of sites.

But IMO, if you can't afford to buy commercial feed for your birds, then honestly, you have too many. I appreciate your desire to create an income stream from eggs, but it's not just a matter of feeding the birds the cheapest food you can find. When you do so, you reduce their production rate (and lose some to cannibalism, as you've found.)

I presume these birds are production Leghorns, yes? Or production RIRs, or sex-links? If not, then you're not getting the best food to production ratio, and you're not going to make money.

Here's an informative page about setting up a layer flock (although I am not wild about the idea of hens in battery cages, I know it is done commercially to maximize production and profit):

http://msucares.com/poultry/management/poultry_care.html

Bottom line, it's hard to compete with the huge commercial producers, and in order to do so you have to offer your customers something other than what they can get dirt-cheap at WalMart: organic, free or day-range, hormone/antibiotic free, and so on. It doesn't sound like your setup fills any of those requirements.

[Altair]

Good luck with your birds, chicken farmer. Along with diet chickens will also peck from boredom and genetics: some birds and strains have more aggressive tendencies than others.

I sympathize as a college grad about making money so you can stretch those proverbial wings. Just try not to forget those other wings (and eggs) that are helping you reach those goals. Money is good but morals are more important in this world ;)

[chicken farmer]

thank you everyone for the info. i havent had any die since the middle of august,but i have finally decided to cut back to only 50 pullets a year and raise more meatbirds and ducks in the summer. thanks again!!