Saving varieties

[Rich]

As a breeder and exhibitor of a lesser known variety of chicken (Partridge Cochin LF) I am concerned about the future of many varieties of poultry. The current point and reward systems in the APA and the ABA have made many breeders place a greater emphasis on those varieties with which they can win. I won't argue that White Plymouth Rocks are better in quality than Buff Rocks, Black Rocks or any of the other varieties, but the current system has resulted in many people giving up on those less successful varieties and in many cases, it is possble that we can lose them forever. It is also true that from a judges standpoint, it is far safer to pick a solid color bird than a parti-colored bird. I'm not saying I blame them, but if we really care about the future of the diversity that exists in our hobby, then we should give that some consideration when appropriate. It often pains me to see a lot of new comers to the hobby immediately decide that they have to make a new variety and one only needs to look at the games, or the call ducks to see how many varieties exist. The problem that I have with this situation is that often times, there are pre existing varieties, already recognized in the standards that are quickly disappearing. If it wasn't for some of the older hatcheries and large breeders I know this would be the case and in many cases, some of those guys are getting older and they may not be around to keep the genetic lines much longer. I've seen successful breeders of some of the more popular varieties get a less popular variety for a couple of years and get frustrated that they can't get them looked at and then they get rid of them. Working on these varieties takes years, especially if they were let go and are in short supply. We need more people who are willing to work on some of these varieties over the long haul and commit themseleves to improving them. I have been frustrated over my 10 years in working with the Partridge Cochin Large Fowl that dispite the fact that I've sold and in many cases, given away quite a few birds, that very few have returned to the show hall. Many of the lesser known varieties need to be exhibited so that others can see them. I know that when I show 2 or 3 birds in my variety, it doesn't have the same impact as showing 6, 10 or 12. The more birds people see, the greater the chance of catching someones eye and promoting the breed. I'm curious as to how we as hobbyists can encourage more interest in the lesser known varieites? Would special cash awards for parti-colored birds increase interest? Special trophies? I don't think the current point system in the APA has helped this cause and I would love to hear other peoples opinions on this topic. Rich

[Evy]

It often pains me to see a lot of new comers to the hobby immediately decide that they have to make a new variety and one only needs to look at the games, or the call ducks to see how many varieties exist

Amen to that, Rich. Not only are they ignoring a ''threatened'' variety, the resulting ''new'' colors are displayed with no regard for type. The results seldom even come close to what the standards call for in Call ducks.

The Faverolles club has encouraged that breed over the past few years to where you're very apt to see one on Ch.row. Twenty years ago, I'd only seen pictures. Lakenvelders are another beautiful bird that comes to mind. I've seen a very few the past couple years...not good ones, but at least someone is trying. Same with LF Russian Orloffs. They were removed from the SOP many years ago, but pop up here & there again.

Did you ever see a White bantam Brahma? ( Thanks, Steve...my goof )

[MattL]

Good Thread and Topic Rich.
The current point and reward systems in the APA and the ABA have made many breeders place a greater emphasis on those varieties with which they can win.
I do not belive the points system in the APA and ABA were actually designed to influence a breeder one way or another. It sure makes a difference when a buyer/exhibitor is buying birds as they buy the ones that can win them useless points.
the current system has resulted in many people giving up on those less successful varieties and in many cases, it is possble that we can lose them forever.
I have been at this since I was 12 and the rarer colors struggled long before the points system was in place. I have seen alot of good rare varieties degrade since then and I have seen some come back. What I have seen was back then the Large Fowl and Bantam numbers were about equal at the shows. It has swung to the bantams with the Large Fowl maybe 1/4 of a show entry now. Large Ducks and Geese have also suffered.
It is also true that from a judges standpoint, it is far safer to pick a solid color bird than a parti-colored bird.
I hear this one alot but the reality is if the birds are judged by the scale of points, it is very difficult to beat a white bird with great type. I have yet to see avery many good colored Gray call females but they win over the whites. If we used the scale of points we could fault them for poor penciling in almost every section.Alot of color breeding is a numbers game, look at OE Bantams for instance, they are the most popular bantam with about 40,000 or so shown every year at ABA meet shows. I would guess there are several hundred thousand of them raised every year. We see show winners in many colors and they also have good type.
I have worked with the rarer colors in many breeds over the last several years. I always seem to have a project going and I like to get them started and pass them on to others so I can tackle another one. Two things that destroy a rare breed or variety- lack of demand for excess stock and lack of other good typed birds to cross into them. Large fowl and Large Waterfowl take alot more resources and alot longer to make improvements. Bantams are easier and thus more popular to work with. I am currently working with Golden Laced Cochin bantams, Barred Cochin bantams and Partridge Cochin bantams. I have more cage space devoted to these projects than breeds that win more but reviving the rare colors is truley a labor of love and not one full of alot of rewards other than personal satifaction. Your LF Partridge Cochins have came along way Rich, can't wait to see how they look in another 20 years or so:)
MattL

[Hummer]

Rich, this will be in interesting topic for discussion on saving varieties rather than propogating varieties. I would love to jump in there and get on my soap box about what points and awards have to some breed clubs today but I'm going to TRY to be on my best behavior until after Columbus :twisted: After all, last night I got all 55 awards envelopes stuffed for all those 24 pretty varieties of call ducks we have sponsors for :wink: . Just talk to some of the older timers who can tell you how things have changed with the coming of the various points systems in the APA, ABA and breed clubs. I will be interested in hearing some of the discussions though.

Evy, I think you may be talking about the Bantam White Brahmas which are still listed in the ABA Standard which are now rarer than hens teeth.

Hummer

[Pathfinders]

This is an interesting thread. I am smiling, because as a breeder of a less popular breed of bird (never mind the weirder varieties I like), it's always been interesting to show. My Dutch are in the SCCL class. It's pretty hard to do much better than BB with a Dutch bird (at least in Open), and generally it's usually a Light Brown that wins.

I also breed Cream Light Brown and Blue Cream Light Browns (which were just admitted to the Standard two years ago at the Crossroads.) It's a challenge, as they need work and yet they're lovely and I like them a lot. So I just keep breeding them, and bringing them to shows, even if they're not perfect, so that people can see them and know there's something out there other than just Light Browns! (Although I do breed and show my LBs, of course.)

Personally, I don't really care about the points. I don't know that I'll ever get to enough shows and do well enough to hit Master Exhibitor, much less Master Breeder. Oh, it's nice to get them when I do, and trophies and ribbons are fun to look at. My children enjoy winning, and I like to provide them with opportunities to do so when we can. But I've also decided in the last year or so to go deep rather than broad, and we've winnowed down what we're working with to three main breeds at present: the Dutch for the girls and me, Buckeyes (mainly for Colleen), and Silkies for the girls (I don't show Silkies, they're for my kids and the 4-H kids.) My husband doesn't do birds, he's a horse guy, so he doesn't really care what we breed, although he likes the Buckeyes.

At one point we had a number of other LF breeds, but the way we're set up, it wasn't practical to keep so many. And yes, Bantams are easier - to house, to show, and to wash! :lol:

But I do understand the desire, and the need, to keep diversity out there. Which is part of why, once my buddy gets enough for me to have some, I'm going to work with the Kentucky Specks, which have all but died out, and as far as I know, only two or three breeders have right now. It's also why we're working with Buckeyes (aside from the fact that I was Ohio born and bred.)

I remember one time a poultry breeder from somewhere down south called me up and asked me about what breeds I was working with. When I told him, there was this pause (you could tell he was trying to be polite), and he said, "That's an unusual mix. No Rocks, no OEGs, nothin' like that?" I laughed and said no, I thought there were enough other folks working with those birds that I'd pass on them.

At any rate, I'm starting to ramble here, but I do get Rich's point, and understand. As for me, I'll keep breeding my weird little Dutch birds, and keep taking them to shows, and see where it takes me.

:wink:

[micofwis]

Interesting thread. I think the answer is to forget about winning Best in Show awards and concentrate on creating and sustaining very active BREED clubs. We have done that with Ameraucanas, and are in the process of doing the same with Chanteclers. With the Ameraucanas we have one great national meet each year, and interested breeders from all over the U.S. attend and show most years. We currently have over 160 members, and national meets typically draw around 200 entries. Our nationals have been held (in recent years) as far west as Great Falls, Montana, and as far east as Virginia. The fellowship is second to none, and we never fail to have a great time. We have eight recognized varieties and a couple others created and nearly on the verge of applying for standard recognition. We provide beautiful awards. Nobody cares who wins or who loses, as we know our birds better than most judges and realize the results are usually going to be a crapshoot anyway. I'm looking forward to participating in like manner with Chantecler's, both large and bantam, in the near future.

[Rich]

Matt,
I agree with the points you are making but we all realize that not all judges use the point system. I happen to rank you up there in that category and there are many that I have the upmost respect for but there are others that routinely "mess up" by not following the point system or by ignoring what they are seeing. I don't know why. I've finally gotten some of my birds to the point of winning RB at some of the smaller shows I've attended this year and even against some of the more popular varieties. I've told some individuals that at the present time, I'm in a judge training mode. Lets be realistic, how many judges have seen some of these rarer varieties. One of the best ways to get them to break open the standard is to give them a class of 8 or 10 birds of decent quality that they may have never seen before.
There is no doubt that the white rocks, white legorns, etc. are better than most of the other colors. But every now and then you see a really good barred rock or black rock (we see those more often around here) and a good judge just can't ignore them. Yet I have observed just that. It's less risky to pick a solid bird.
I think first and foremost we need to raise breeds and varieties that we love. Someone once asked me why I don't raise white or black cochin large fowl and I told them that when I am fortunate enough to win, I want it to be with the partridge. I don't want to compete against myself and if I want another type, I'll go with another breed.
One of the most rewarding things about raising a variety that is less popular is that you can actually see the genetic improvement from year to year. The birds you gave me back a couple of years ago have helped me immensely and I am grateful that you love to play with the genetics. (for those who don't know, I gave Matt a couple of pairs of Partridge he experimented with them and gave me back two typey cockerels that have helped me increase the size and type on the birds I was breeding).
I just think it is a shame that many people find it more important to make new varieties when we have many older ones that are beautiful in their own right and have no one that seems to be interested in them. How can we increase the interest? Rich

[MattL]

You brought up a good point I almost forgot Rich. A wise old chicken and waterfowl man(George Shreffler) once told me back in the early years when I was working with Black Wyandotte Bantams, that you have to show enough of the rarer colors or breeds so that the judge has to judge them. I asked George what that ment and he suggested I show them 3 or 4 deep in the cock, hen, cockerel and pullet class and maybe throw a trio in there. He said then they had to judge the birds instead of just marking them up 1 and picking BV-RV. At that time a Black Wyandotte bantam would win BV and that was it. After 18 years of work, they now go BB, Best RCCL and we even have a few Champion and Res. of Shows on Blacks. George was one of the only breeders of Buff Ducks for many years and he always showed a bunch of them and he often said some judges never seen them till he started breeding and showing them.
One of the things that limit interest in making the rarer breeds and varieties better is patience. I call it the 5 year rule. If a new fancier stays at it for 5 years, odds are he is a lifer and will work to make his birds better regardless of what they are. Think about how many people have come and gone over the years and never really made their birds better, they just propagated some one elses stuff. Another old time breeder of large cochins( the late Ed Miller) told me that a line of birds is truely not your line until you have bred them for 7 years. He always said that in 7 years you will ahve screwed them up at least twice and had to breed your way back out fo your mess. I have found that some of the best advice I have ever got.

I too enjoy the challenge of breeding up something better than what I started with and I have not always been successful. I have actually made a few projects worse than what I started with. I do notice one thing, once you start winning with your LF Partridge Cochins, others will want them and you will have more competition at the shows. Keep the faith, I know of no LF Partridge any better and hope to have the Partridge Bantams competitive soon thanks to fellow breeders seeding my start like Tom Roebuck and Matt McCammon. Partridge is my favorite color and I think it is the most difficult to breed correct color in both sexes. Hope to see ya in Columbus so we can chat, looks like a tremendous Large Cochin show with Doerr and Roebuck coming in for the event.
MattL

[Omega Blue Farm]

Some think of Standard Bred Poultry as a static museum piece that has finished evolving. They are more preoccupied with looking back rather than looking forward. However, we should not forget that we have such a rich diversity of poultry breeds and varieties because our predecessors were busy looking forward creating the diversity. If newcomers are so pre-occupied with creating new rather than reworking the old, maybe we should be asking why? What is the old lacking?

Overall, healthy poultry evolution will occur where there is a balance between breeds going exinct and new breeds being created. Unfortunately, this process is not in balance. Newcomers are not willing to invest in the experience and education required to successfully create new varieties. Many are of the "MTV" generation seeking instant gratification. As a result, we see many breeds and varieties dissappearing while seeing little in the way of new useful breeds and varieties to replace them. This isn't just an APA and ABA problem, it's a global problem. We are losing our genetic diversity.

I believe one root of the problem lays with the narrow focus our hobby takes when promoting it's breeds. We tend to market show birds to show people. The non show customer base tends to be a dead end market that is only interested in a few pets or heritage birds. The majority of smallholders looking for egg layers go to the feed store and buy poultry genetic resources owned by trans-national corporations.

It is often said that the best way to preserve a breed is to put it on the table. Frank Reese is doing it with his turkeys. ALBC is doing it with the Buckeye. Unless there is a way to support a well thought out and thorough breeding program, how can one build and maintain breeds that can gain market interest? For a breed (or variety) to survive, it must be maintained by a market. As it currently stands, the Standard Bred market in north america is not capable of supporting all the breeds and varieties we currently have. Unless we find a way to expand that market base, the loss of breeds and varieties is unavoidable. This brings us back to my first question, why are newcomers so intent on creating new varieties? What do they perceive is lacking in the current selection?

As for getting points with less popular varieties and breeds, I will concur with the sentiment of entering a deep class. I have been known to enter over 2 dozen birds in a class to force a judge to actually judge the class. If the line is of sufficient quality, it will be recognized more often than not. I have ameraucanas, araucanas, muscovy, and turkeys, none of which are breeds known to be show favourites. None were bred from known show lines. Despite the disadvantages, I have absolutely no complaints about the availability of points for the birds I've shown. My birds have earned more than their fair share.

I firmly believe the trick with the large birds is to breed for the table first and formost. Rich, if I was in your shoes, I would consider following the advice found on the ALBC website with respect to breeding and selection. My wife was having a tough time with her Rhode Island Reds and despite using a braided 3 pen breeding program, was going backwards with her best birds being those hatched in 2005. She tossed her previous breeding system and refocussed following the ALBC advice. Not only is she enjoying improvement for the first time in years, the rhodie breeding program has become much more economical.

[Rich]

Omega Blue Farm, You seem to have gotten the impression that I am not moving forward with my birds. I have made vast improvements in them while mainting high egg production in the line. I'm a Ph.D. Animal Scientist by training so I do know a few things. The genetic diversity that exists in poultry is something special and unfortunately, many varieties are in danger of being lost. Some of those breeds and varieties have some great traits that should be preserved. Many of the new varieties that I've seen go through a qualifying meet, to almost disappear afterwards. How many White Crested Chocolate or White Crested Cuckoo Polish bantams have you seen recently? Is there really a need for lemon hackled brown breasted old english bantam? (fictious but somebody is probably working on it) when there are so many current varieties that no one is breeding? What about call ducks? My goodness, there are many of those that don't even breed true and people are trying to make even more varieties. I agree that many people working on these "new" varieties are newcomers and are trying to leave some sort of mark on the hobby. In reality, I suspect the variety will fade out when they do.

I ran in to Don Schrider last weekend and he gave me a thumbs up when he saw my birds. I do show deep and force judges to look and judge the birds but I have also seen judges overlook birds (my own and others) because of their inability to know what they are looking for and their unwillingness to pick up their standard and check. I've also had a judge mark all my birds 2nd place at one show. Other judges who were at that show were shocked when they saw what she had done as they at least knew the variety. Don't get me wrong, I really don't care and my main reason is to get the birds out in public and to promote the variety. Partridge use to be the major variety of large cochin shown. I have no problem selling my excess birds, my concern is over how we get more people interested in these parti-colored birds? Like I said, I can sell them but they rarely if ever show up at a show again, once they are sold. I intend to plug away and will not give up but I posted this mainly to get some discussion on what I believe to be a relavant topic for this board. Rich

[Omega Blue Farm]

Rich, no offense was intended. It was not my intent to suggest that you were not making progress. However, after 10 years of working the breed, you seem to be expressing dissapointment in how the judges treat them. After a decade, I too would be dissapointed if any of my chosen breeds were not at least strong contenders for class. This lead me to wonder if you may be overly focussing on some traits at the expense of others. The most common fault of fancier breeders is that they tend to not put as much into the body as they should. The ALBC documents address this issue and offer sound guidance. It very much overlaps with what is hidden within the APA standard.


new varieties that I've seen go through a qualifying meet, to almost disappear afterwards.

I hear you. I believe the problem arises when the new varieties are created without consideration to marketing. What is the incentive for future fanciers to work with the new variety? THose that don't answer this basic question when working on a new variety are not doing the hobby any favours, IMO. They are not contributing to the sustainability of the hobby and their efforts will most likely die with them.

Take araucanas and ameraucanas for example, my two favorite breeds. If it wasn't for the fact that they layed blue and green eggs, there would be no market for them. The standards for both breeds is a mess, with varieties having been admitted without consideration to what was actually genetically available. Both breeds are nowhere near to being refined (genetically) and their recent history is packed full of mongelizing events. Given their inconsistency, there is little incentive for many fanciers to breed these birds for show. Like you, I have no problem selling my extra birds, and I sell a couple hundred of each per year. For those that express an interest in breeding, I sell good complimentary breeders. However, also like you, I never see them or their offspring competing against me at shows.

Part of the hobby's marketing problem is that it is having a tough time marketing it's shows. We need to find a way to reverse that trend. Regulators up here love to paint us as a bunch of disorganized individuals without any cohesive focus. They use this as an excuse to not include us when making policy decisions that effect us. I've been working to reverse this perception by educating the regulators on the quality of the standard, the training of the judging, and the organized nature of the shows. Because of sanctioned shows, we are able to quantify our organized status. We just need to get more hobbyists to participate and support their local shows. While they have a much deeper purpose of supporting the hobby, most view poultry showing as an excercise in vanity.

[Bob308]

There are no culls in Old English, only new varieties....

Rich, I will not bore you with pearls of wisdom or advice you need neither ( nor do I have any). I would only say that while the poultry world needs more Fanciers than exhibitors, if working on a new variety is what gives someone the energy to get up and go to Poultry show then I can deal with that.

Bob

[goosedragon]

Just a brief comment, As a non-shower it is very unlikely that I am going to be willing to pay show bird prices for birds which I don't intend to show...(for Omega Blue Farms) Evy knows what I think of the good show type calls...If I ever get retired and established I hope to go to shows to buy call culls that actually look like ducks not bathtub toys. Too small to even reproduce... Don't take me wrong I know it takes breeder skills to keep to the type and I respect that.~gd BTW I am quilty of providing awards that Hummer spent all that time on stuffing into for all those pretty little birds. :mrgreen:

[cdhash]

Rich - I enjoyed talking to you and going over your birds at the huge Indy show a couple years ago. Partridge Cochins were my first chickens as a 12 yr old boy. I won every county fair in central IL one year with my first McMurray Partridge cochins! (then I had an eye opening experience when I went to the state fair and later real "APA club" shows.

Eventually, I had a few decent ones from real breeders, but b/c they competed with my langshans, I didn't keep them when i went on to college and my paretns took care of thebirds for me.

Anyway, you did send some to that young girl in IL this year that I referred to you, and I know she is plannign to breed them this fall and I expect to see them at the IL state fair next year.

I appreciate your helping her out. I also don't understand why people go crazy with non-standard colors. I look forward to seeing you again sometime and maybe even getting a start in Partridge for myself if there is a chance.

[Rich]

Thanks for all the comments. One other thing that I worth mentioning is with price for birds. There are those out there that have as one of their main objectives as making money at this game. Others are more concerned for promoting the breeds and varieties. Someone who is selling show quality birds may be producing 4 or 5 or even more to get one of show quality. If they are the type of breed that is slow to develop, that could involve having quite a bit of money invested in a show quality bird.

[Bo Garrett]

Several months ago I posted a similar thread on the cochin forum about a long lost Brown Cochin variety. This is one I have been working on reviving and have yet to find the combination Mr. Duffy used to develop this magnificent bird that was at one time competitive with the solid colored varieties.
Rich, you have without a doubt the best Partridge I have ever seen and at Indy I felt the large cochin class was not given a fair look. I managed to have reserve of breed and certainly didn't deserve it. The buffs and the partridge were excellent classes and could have easily been placed at the top of the class.
Personally, I got into large cochins not for the points or the money, even though I know this is a money making hobby:), I did it because I have been in poultry 36 of my 40 years of life and love every minute of it!! I am now working with Buff Toulouse Geese and will try to get them up to standard and a pleasure to look at when shown or just grazing out in the pasture. Love the hobby and love your birds, that is all that matters. Everyone reading this thread needs to commit to at least one rare breed or variety and endeavor to make it meet the standard as best they can.
As a side note: I saw several very nice White Crested Chocolate Polish Bantams at the Kansas Classic this past weekend and a pullet was reserve AOCCL! Can't remember who showed it but very nice. There were also black giants, LF Partrige Wyandottes, bantam silver laced cochins, bantam red cochins and a very good turkey class with slates, bourbon reds and palms represented.
Thanks to all who have posted to this thread and keep it going!

Bo Garrett

[moo]

I read an article a few years ago about this and it focused mainly on the largefowl birds. I bred plymouth rocks for awhile and now that I think about it I dont think I have ever seen a silver pencilled rock and the only buff rock I have seen looked like it was a throwback from an orpington.
My main breed now is wyandotte bantams. I bred silver laced wyandotte largefowl for awhile but after a nasty dog attack on them I decided to get into bantams.In bantams I have whites, silver laced, and dun laced. I have the whites because I know they can win and they look amazing when they are out on the lawn with their pure white feathers and bright red comb, face, and wattles.
I got started on the dunlaced when I saw a pair at a county fair. The breeder wouldnt sell any and soon after that she lost the cock and had no way of getting more from what she said. Later that year I was at a show and went to the chick auction. They had many wyandotte bantams from a breeder on the east coast, I cant think of his name right now. Anyway they had a box of 5 solid dun wyandotte bantam chicks. I was the only one bidding on them and luckly they turned out to be a male and 4 hens with great type, better than some blacks I have seen. I bred them for awhile and sold many eggs and gave some to 4-H kids.
When the APA semi-annual was in Washington I went and saw some silver laced wyandotte bantams. I was thrilled so I bought a pair. The birds I got and the ones exhibited were not the best, they had very poor type and very light legs, some had stubs, they were a mess. I went home with my pair, the rooster had a longer tail and a huge comb but he had great color. The hen had poor type also and white earlobes. I bred them to get some pullets to use on the dun laced project. The birds I did get had poor type and the pullets had white earlobes and the cockerels had some white showing in their earlobes but they had great color. I bred the pullets to a dun cockerel and bred a silver laced cockerel to the dun pullets. All of the chicks had great type and good combs.
I ended up selling the solid duns and worked with the dun and silver laced birds. I kept all of the pullets from that mating which looked solid dun and bred them back to a silver laced cockerel to get better pattern. Luckly the chicks were better than the parents and looked good overall as far as color and type. I showed the best pair of the dun laced and a few silver laced at the fair and did well with them, the judge said that they had the best type he has seen in a laced wyandotte. I then bred the dun laced back to silver laced wyandottes to clear up the pattern. Thanks to the duns with the good type I managed to get dun laced and silver laced birds that have good color and pattern. By crossing colors to get a new variety I managed to improve an existing variety. I feel that silver laced birds I have can give the whites and blacks good competition.
I think every one should have a variety that wins at shows and also a project variety that they are working to improve. I know that there are many many breeds that are in the standard but I have never seen in person. It seems that the popular breeds over here are the wyandotte bantams, OEGB, modern game bantams, and largefow plymouth rocks and leghorns. When I show on the coast there are some great brown leghorns that beat the whites most of the time.

[HunterFarmer]

I am enjoying the discussion here but am probably going to get negative responses for my thoughts. Just know I am writing because I DO CARE and want to be involved! :)

To start, I have never even shown a chicken but wanted to 'do something' with a lesser known breed plus work with some of the other breeds I have. Yes, it is a learning experience, that is fine with me, but I want this to be fun as well. I started out with hatchery egg laying breeds and I think it is a natural course to one day decide it is time to give back a little and be more serious with the birds. At least for me.

I want to say first, after reading everything many of you experienced people wrote, that it is VERY DIFFICULT being new to working with a breed to even get good birds to work with.

I am definitely not an MTV generation-instant success person but, finding BREEDER QUALITY birds has been difficult.

I have some araucanas, we all know they do not breed even close to the standard on a routine basis and are hard to get. Yep, araucanas are a serious challenge and I enjoy it. I tried even finding a well bred cockerel for my black giant project and could not find one. No extra cockerels, wow! That's fine and I am working, but it seems weird to me that (some) people think you are a nobody, a nothing unless you have spent ten years trying to work with someones culls to make something worthy. That's a tough row to hoe no matter the breed. No, I am not looking for handouts and blue ribbon winers but experienced people do need to step in and guide the up and coming for what ever their breed specialty is. I am sure there are some that do!

Positve input from experienced people really goes a long way.

To me if a club wants to promote a breed they would ask that members/breeders only allow out of their pens birds WORTHY of breeding. This has been hard for me to find and I am not just speaking about araucanas or black giants. I have a few other breeds.

So to say new people are MTV instant gratification people is a bit harsh. I'm not looking to buy a bird or a pair of breeders I can show and say are mine. I, as an up and coming poultry enthusiast am looking for something better than pet/barnyard quality birds to CONTINUE some really great breeds.

I really want this post to come off positive, a lot is lost over internet postings and I don't claim to be the best writer. I mean this to not be offensive at all, just a different view, how I have seen it so far. That's all.

[Evy]

HunterFarmer,
Going to the Congress show is a good place to start. Go to as many of the other NE shows as possible, too. Talk to the people showing breeds you're interested in. Most are more than happy to discuss the ones they love. As in everything, you'll meet some that aren't, but most poultry people are a friendly bunch. Just don't make a pest of yourself either. If someone doesn't have anything to share, they won't an hour later either. It's a good way to connect, ask if you can contact them in the spring / summer, ask for breeding tips, etc. Subscribe to Poultry Press & check the names that are placing well with a breed you like. Late spring always brings birds to sell. They don't have to be perfect to introduce the genes you need to improve yours. Just avoid hatcheries & farm auctions.

[HunterFarmer]

Thanks Evy, for your input. You have come off as one of the very experienced here and thus so, are very knowlegeable! Knowlege is valuable.

Hopefully the economy will allow more than one trip to a show. There are none here in Vermont so I have to travel a bit. I'll do what I can. Yep, going to subscribe to the PP and some other stuff!

[cdhash]

I have some araucanas, we all know they do not breed even close to the standard on a routine basis and are hard to get. Yep, araucanas are a serious challenge and I enjoy it. I tried even finding a well bred cockerel for my black giant project and could not find one. No extra cockerels, wow! That's fine and I am working, but it seems weird to me that (some) people think you are a nobody, a nothing unless you have spent ten years trying to work with someones culls to make something worthy.



First of all, I did not take your post as negative, just frustrated.

However, I have been involved with exhbition poultry for 20 years, and I've never seen people have the attitude that you mentioned. (Thinking you had to work with culls for 10 yrs before you were worthy.)

Personally, I have seen people who say they just don't sell birds at all. I've seen people price their birds VERY high, but I've never seen anyone say, well if you prove yourself for a number of years, maybe THEN I'll sell you some good birds.

I do think that some new people get turned off b/c good breeders want top dollar for good birds. Peolpe like Rich are few and far between in that they will give away great birds.

I mostly raise breeds that are not considered "rare" (Black Langshans and White Wyandottes). However, I had rare breeds from Duane Urch sent to me last year as chicks, and I had some pretty decent birds develop. Most notable was a very nice Golden Campine cockeral that was Ch Continental at the IL state fair. Certainly a bird worthy of being a breeder male. I offered him to two campine breeders for free jsut to see if they needed some genetic diversity in their flock. Ended up selling him cheaply to a guy who keeps a lot of rare breeds going. I'm not sure I would do the same with a class champion langshan cockerel out of my bloodline I've been breeding since I was 12...but this thread is about rare breeds, and it is important for people to work together and share to help keep these breeds going.

[Pathfinders]

I do think that some new people get turned off b/c good breeders want top dollar for good birds. People like Rich are few and far between in that they will give away great birds.

There's top dollar, and then there's top dollar.

I do struggle with the 13 year-old that emails me and says he wants birds to show in 4-H. My experience when I sell to such youth usually ends one of two ways: either the youth keeps the birds, shows them, and grows up to be an exhibitor; or far more often the youth gets tired of the birds and sells them within two months of fair, or his parents get tired of the birds and don't support him, or he allows the birds to be killed by predators because he doesn't house them properly, or they get sick and die, or something happens and the following year the kid is not in birds. I find that frustrating, as I don't sell my culls to anyone, and birds I've sold in that sort of situation were birds I'd be happy keeping for myself.

So while I do give birds away (did so this weekend with a nice "extra" Dutch cockerel who lasted through the many waves of culling I did this year), I don't do it often. It's my experience that people think of something that they've gotten for free as having little to no value, and they often don't appreciate it. I try to price my birds reasonably, but also high enough so that those looking for something cheap (who won't appreciate it and care for it) are weeded out.



To me if a club wants to promote a breed they would ask that members/breeders only allow out of their pens birds WORTHY of breeding.

A club can ask all they want, but cannot control what a member does, not in the breeding pen, not in the show hall, and not in their sales to others.

There are all sorts of philosophies out there about breeding and what constitutes a cull, as well as what to do with culls. Perhaps it's not a bad idea to ask a breeder from whom you purchase birds what they do with their culls. I know some people kill birds they don't think are worthy of selling (have done this myself.) I know some who find avenues to sell such birds without them being identified as the specific breed they are. I know some folks who have neighbors who like lawn ornaments and who can give their culls away as such. And some folks take their extra birds to swaps or sales, or sell them to others. There are all kinds out there, and it never hurts to ask a given breeder what they do.

But I too have never been told I had to wait ten years before I could buy good birds from a breeder. If someone were to tell me that (or intimate it), I'd find another breeder to buy from.

Laura

[Evy]

I do think that some new people get turned off b/c good breeders want top dollar for good birds. People like Rich are few and far between in that they will give away great birds.

There's top dollar, and then there's top dollar.

I do struggle with the 13 year-old that emails me and says he wants birds to show in 4-H. My experience when I sell to such youth usually ends one of two ways: either the youth keeps the birds, shows them, and grows up to be an exhibitor; or far more often the youth gets tired of the birds and sells them within two months of fair, or his parents get tired of the birds and don't support him, or he allows the birds to be killed by predators because he doesn't house them properly, or they get sick and die, or something happens and the following year the kid is not in birds. I find that frustrating, as I don't sell my culls to anyone, and birds I've sold in that sort of situation were birds I'd be happy keeping for myself.
What annoys me is someone talking me out of a good pr. of birds to "surprise their grandchild / child for a 4H project'' & then seeing ''grandpas'' name as winning a class somewhere :x

So while I do give birds away (did so this weekend with a nice "extra" Dutch cockerel who lasted through the many waves of culling I did this year), I don't do it often. It's my experience that people think of something that they've gotten for free as having little to no value, and they often don't appreciate it. I try to price my birds reasonably, but also high enough so that those looking for something cheap (who won't appreciate it and care for it) are weeded out.

Agreed.



To me if a club wants to promote a breed they would ask that members/breeders only allow out of their pens birds WORTHY of breeding.

A club can ask all they want, but cannot control what a member does, not in the breeding pen, not in the show hall, and not in their sales to others.
One gesture that impressed me was the Northern NY club members one year gave every jr. exhibitor that didn't place a bird at their show , their choice of a good pr. from member donated stock. Yes, they were free, but it gave the kids some encouragement.
There are all sorts of philosophies out there about breeding and what constitutes a cull, as well as what to do with culls. Perhaps it's not a bad idea to ask a breeder from whom you purchase birds what they do with their culls. I know some people kill birds they don't think are worthy of selling (have done this myself.) I know some who find avenues to sell such birds without them being identified as the specific breed they are. I know some folks who have neighbors who like lawn ornaments and who can give their culls away as such. And some folks take their extra birds to swaps or sales, or sell them to others. There are all kinds out there, and it never hurts to ask a given breeder what they do.

But I too have never been told I had to wait ten years before I could buy good birds from a breeder. If someone were to tell me that (or intimate it), I'd find another breeder to buy from.

Laura

[goosedragon]

"cdhash wrote:
To me if a club wants to promote a breed they would ask that members/breeders only allow out of their pens birds WORTHY of breeding" Just what makes a bird WORTHY of breeding? Espically if you are talking about about a rareish breed or variety? Maybe good breeder birds should only be sold or given to people that have proven themselves as breeders.....
I am not going to mention any names but there used to be a breeder of Black Jersey Giants out on the west coast that used to refuse any of his birds until he was convinced that the buyer had the knowledge and will to maintain the line at his high standards. All his culls were used to improve the frock of his son who was raising birds for the asian markets in the area. He hadn't brought the birds to Perfection (someone known as Mrs. Miller had done that and served as a mentor to him) When she passed he got the birds and the line.
There was an outbreak of exotic Newcastle Disease in his area. The kind of disease where the Feds "depopulate" the birds first before the tests are even back. At that point we on this board were able to convince him that in order to maintain the line through a disaster like that, the line needed to be dispersed across the US. I know some of the birds ended up in Virgina, I think some went to South Carolina, and there was talk of a midwest location. But I don't hear much about Giants anymore, I wonder if the plan worked? ~gd

[moo]

I read through this again and it reminded me of when I was interested in dark brahmas. I was at a sale and got a hen and loved the look of her. I ordered some from McKinney and Govero when they were still around and the chicks that survived were pullets. I decided to look for breeders in the APA yearbooks and the Poultry Press and found one breeder in Washington. I called him and asked about his birds and all, he said he had some of the best brahmas around. When I asked how much he wanted for a rooster he told me he wanted $250 for one of his culls and if I didnt buy it he would snap its neck. I am glad that I didnt buy it because when I went to a show that fall he had some of his best birds there which werent all that good and he ended up getting kicked out of the show due to sick birds.
When I got started in white wyandotte bantams I was a kid in 4-H and a great friend gave me two trios to get started with. He told me he was giving them to me because when he was getting started someone gave him a group of starter birds. He let me come out to his place and choose birds out of his final 5 roosters and 10 hens before he sold the other trio and kept the others for himself. After I made my choices he told me that I chose his top rooster and one of his top hens, I felt bad but he told me that they would be a great start to my breeding program. I have won many times with my wyandottes and I am glad I was given the birds to get started. Now when I am at a show or get an email or call from a 4-H/youth person interested in my birds I will give them a pair or trio. I feel that by giving them some birds I am returning the favor and all I can do is hope that the kids will be happy with them and breed and show them and maybe give birds to youth to keep the breed going.
I have also given some birds to a teen that was interested in getting started only to find out that he was a loser and owed many people money for birds and wasnt allowed to have animals due to animal cruelty and neglect.

[Rich]

Again, a lot of good comments. I understand some of the comments about juniors and as someone who got started in this as a youth, I have to tell you that it takes a while for a kid to get the birds they are looking for. I myself went through a few breeds until I found the ones I liked the most. Those happened to be the Partridge Cochin Large Fowl. College got me out of them and eventually, my experiences with them as a youth made me go back to them. So here we are, full circle. Evy, I would be royally ticked off if I sold birds with the intention of them going to a junior, only to find out an adult was showing them. Unethical on their part. Regardless, I still give birds away to juniors when I have extras, but while I will give them good birds, I will not give them my best. I have too far to go with the variety to do that. I can't help but think of Charlie Wabeck, who our club still honors with a memorial scholarship each year. A group of us in the Delmarva Poultry Fanciers Club were trying to see if we could remember just one show where Charlie wasn't on the prowl to find birds for a junior. I know he talked many a breeder out of birds to help a kid and he routinely got really good birds for a reasonable price that the kids could afford. If we don't try to pass the torch to those kids that have a real interest, who will carry this on when we are gone?

[jungle]

I will offer my perspective, one which I have not seen offered yet. Being a late starter in keeping poultry, I aquired my first birds just a few years ago while in my mid 30's. I had no mentor, no 4H, no prior experience at all, just a general interest that had never been acted upon before. My first birds were hatchery chicks and the first year I kept poultry I attended several local shows. I soon realized the tremendous difference between hatchery stock and what comes from a good breeder. At first, I was not particularly interested in showing, per se, however I did want to have birds that actually looked like the breed they were. This is when I started buying better quality stock from breeders. Now, I had no interest in competing yet and was not so concerned with improving the birds as much as just appreciating very nice looking stock. I would imagine that there are others out there who feel the same. They want good stock but are not necessarily interested in showing and this may be why you don't see them back at the show.

Eventually, I did become serious about working on a couple particular breeds and was curious about what showing was all about. I am not a particularly timid person however I am also not an "in your face" kind of guy either. I prefer to do as much research as I can, stand back and watch, learning what I can and then act from there. I have purchased birds from several prominent breeders here in the Northeast and must say that my experiences with several of them was indifferent at best. I explained that I was interested in working with the breed, was looking for good stock, and was simply shown a pair of birds and told a price. Never did I attempt to bargain as I feel the majority of prices for fowl are far too low considering the time and expense that goes into them. In some cases, I did feel that I was almost bothering them, or at least that they were only really interested in selling to someone that did not need much information or education. Being new, I did not know how much of this hooby is truly "do it yourself" as in, get an SOP, learn it, and teach yourself. In a few cases I really did not feel comfortable at all asking about good traits, or bad, and if they might have any tips on working with their line. The breeders I purchased from have some of the best stock of the breeds they work with so I still made my purchases. A couple breeders were completely opposite. They were more than happy to help explain faults, challenges particular to a breed, and offer advice on how to approach working with a line. Rich, I did speak with you regarding your birds last year at the Congress and you were one of the good guys. You took time to explain what made your good birds good and what the issues were on the birds that needed improvement. It was much appreciated. Not being one to be put off so easily, and being encouraged by a couple other breeders out there, I am starting to show more and more.

My first show was very intimidating. I was so nervous as I was at a complete loss as to what to do. I did not even know if the cage cards were put out for you or if you pick your own cages! I was quite afraid of looking like a complete fool because I had no idea how it all works. Keep in mind that all of this was in addition to having my doubts about my birds as well. I did not really know anyone else at the show so was pretty much on my own.

I have never felt the need to develop a new variety and only offer my experiences as possible scenarios as to why newcomers may not wind up at the shows or really get into breeding seriously. Perhaps they appreciate their birds for them just being birds, perhaps they don't feel confident enough, or maybe they just don't know how to do it. I speak from experience in a completely different field when I say that it is very easy to forget how much the amateur does not know. When you have been doing something for so long that it becomes second nature you may not realize that it is something that someone unfamiliar with the practice may not even think of. I know that if I had not met the few breeders that have been helpful that I would certainly not be showing at this point.

Richard

[cmaddalena]

I still remember when the most important thing to the breeders in the show room was winning 1st and 2nd places on their birds. They wanted best pens, displays BB , RB BV RV. Those days are long gone. So many new *breeders* want only class champions. I still remember when a young guy asked me about my Black Minorcas. He loved the birds and wanted some and his mother questioned whether or not they would win Class champion. She said she has always seen Leghorns win and tried to talk him out of them. I told her yup, thats right, they rarely ever win anything and I walked away. I had Champion Mediterranean at that show, but wasn't interested in selling them anything afterwards.
I also believe that giving birds to kids is usually a mistake. Parents will treat the birds directly proportionately to how much they pay for them. If they get them free, usually the dog kills them because the pens are so badly made.
I raise Large Barred Plymouth Rocks ( 30 years), Large Silver Penciled and Partridge Rocks(10 years). Large Partridge Wyandottes, (5 years), ya, I wanna be on Champion row.........