Bloodlines and reputations
Need some advice on this one. It would seem that someone is selling hatching eggs from birds that they say are from my bloodlines. But I have never sold birds to this person.
I am somewhat unhappy with this. I suppose it is possible this person obtained some of my stock from someone else, but to sell birds as my bloodlines (which are actually a composite of several others, to be honest, as I always have been about my birds), seems disingenuous at best, and certainly misleading.
How have you all handled such a thing in the past? I welcome any advice.
I've had it happen, too. It's flattering, in a way, but I've contacted them & insisted they stop. A threat to post a public disclaimer usually ends it.
Originally Posted by Pathfinders
Bloodlines and reputations
we went through something similar many years ago when someone was advertising a stud dog as being from our bloodlines even though the only common ancestor was four generations removed.
We discovered that you can sue for misrepresentation. You first have to contact the party and request that they stop using your name. If that doesn't work you go to court and get a "cease and desist order." Finally, you can bring suit for misrepresentation and actually be awarded damages.
In our case we used a combination of contacting the party using our name, as well as a conversation with the editor of the publication the advertising was appearing in suggesting the possibility of them becoming co-defendants if the advertising continued to appear. The problem was solved almost immediately.
I had this happen quite a bit this year with people selling eggs on EBay and birds on Eggbid.
I thought about for about 5 minutes and then moved on.
It is just chickens and for them to think that adding my name to the item would do some good is rather foolish on their part. I don't have a reputation to uphold and didn't let it go to my head.
I think that there are two genereal reasons why people would advertise the lineage of the birds/eggs they are selling: #1- to let people know what level of quality they are dealing with and potentially get more $ (if it is a good line) and #2 - to simply let people know which line they are in case someone is looking to stay within that line for certain traits. In either case I don't see how one could insist that their name not be used if the line was theirs at some recent point. In my opinion, if you sell birds then it should be expected that the offspring of those birds would be represented as such. I don't think that I should have the exclusive right to sell my stock as my line. If I sell birds I would fully expect any of their offspring to potentially be represented as my line. Honestly, I really don't see what people get so bent out of shape over. I would really like to know just how many people would buy birds from a completely anonymous source without knowing anything about their history or where their stock came from. Potential buyers should understand that just because a person's name is on a certain line does not mean that the quality will still be there.
I suppose this also brings up the inevitable question of how long someone needs to work with a line before it finally becomes their own. Unfortunately, you will likely not get the same answer twice. 5 years ago I purchased my first group of Marans from Bev Davis as she has some of the best stock in the US. I have stayed within the line whenever adding stock and will not purchase animals outside the line. In this case, I need to know what line someone is selling. Whenever I sell I still advertise the birds as Davis line, not my own. Since I have been breeding them for 5 years are they my line yet or not? I don't advertise them as her line to get more $ as I have won enough shows under my name to be known for good color by myself. I have had offspring of birds I sold to people be sold under my name and do not have a problem with it at all. As far as I am concerned it should be expected.
I don't have a problem with any of the points you make. What I did object to in one person was that she'd taken photos from my picture site & used them to advertise her birds which had to be many generations removed, if even from my stock at all. Another case was a guy who was buying up $5 junk at swaps & passing them off as mine on Eggbid, again with photos. I believe someone finally got him arrested.
Originally Posted by jungle
Last edited by Evy; 06-23-2010 at 07:31 AM.
When I sell or post an ad off my offspring, I tell folks where the original birds came from. I donít see how this could be wrong in anyway since I didnít lay the eggs to start my flock. Everyone obtained their original birds from somewhere. And I paid more money for the birds being that they came from a well known breeder who is suppose to have top quality.
Can birds get registered like other farm animals? I can say my birds came from here but I can also back it up with sales receipt. Does that mean the birds are true to the original breeder? I guess itís only how honest the seller is.
Reading Evyís post made me think of what I see all the time in ads. ďphotosĒ Why do I see the same photos posted for different hatcheries?
It's a tacky promotional tool to get more money on the sale. I see people selling Bill Wulff's Black Old English and he has not had them for years. I would drop them a line and like Bob's says move on. A smart buyer would see that and go right to the breeder mentioned and eliminate the middleman
I never mention in my ads where my birds came from originally. Once the birds left that breeder's hands then they become my birds. If someone asks in an email what the blood lines are then I will tell them. And I have done the same when I want to make sure I'm not introducing the same blood lines in to my flock.
Originally Posted by cegs
I have a similar situation right now with a guy I am getting birds from.
He has bred them since 06 I believe and got the original bloodlines somewhere else.
So when people will ask me where I got them I will say so and so and they are from this bloodline.
Laura I see your frustration and Evy made some good points. Up here in Canada we have similar issues but there just isnt as many varieties as there are in the states, but it does happen for sure.
As Matt points out if you know or see something fishy I think as enthusuiasts and people of the fancy we have a right to say something...? Especially if you know the person whos name is being used ie: Bill Wulffs name (using Matts example) and you know then why not be able to say something.
Good post and sure does give some insight, love to hear more.
I still do not see why stating what line you are working with is such a horrible offense and automatically construed to be a tacky promotional tool. Why should people have to hide where they got their birds from? I could see more resentment over someone buying excellent stock from a breeder and then selling it as their own line. If breeder "A" has put in many years of effort to improve a line of birds then they should get the credit for it. If they are truly better birds then they should command a higher price. In my opinion, if you do not want your name being used to sell stock created/improved by yourself, then don't sell your stock. You will solve the problem- no one will be able to ride your coat-tails. Otherwise, it seems to me to be a matter of having your cake and eating it too. Obviously, if it is a case of fraud the circumstances are completely different.
The issue comes from the fact that you can buy a pair of birds from Evy lets say and completely destroy them in 2 generations... Heck you could sell crap in 1 generation from them since even the best birds will produce some poor young. Those birds are not fit to breed from, probably will not produce anything but crap, and would never be sent to someone from who they are claiming the name of the line.
Originally Posted by jungle
Using bloodline names as a selling tool is for people that can not breed, can not pick good birds, can not condition a bird, and only wins by showing purchased birds. At least that has been my interpretation. If people ask what bloodline a bird is I have always had a detailed answer for them but at that point the birds are usually already sold.
I completely understand what you are saying but still feel the argument simply does not hold water. Using your example, no one should expect to be able to sell any birds with any claim to quality unless they have started with hatchery crap, improved it for 15 years, and then put their own name on it.
Originally Posted by dhw
It all boils down to you wanting to sell your birds for a higher $ since they are higher quality (perfectly understandable)- but you do not want anyone who pays you that higher dollar amount to sell any of your stock for that same high dollar amount and profit from all of your years of hard work on the line. Sorry- it doesn't work that way. There is a reason that people are willing to pay a high dollar amount for good quality birds- because they are good quality birds and it will save them 15 years (or more) of their own time! Prohibiting them from advertising them as a better quality line removes part of the value they have paid for.
The argument about poor quality being tied to the original breeder's name, I feel, is BS. First of all, if quality is really what that original breeder is so concerned about then why does their argument always come back to their lamentations over the seller going for the better buck? Secondly, the birds are being advertised as a specific LINE- not necessarily show winning individuals. Typically, if you know enough about poultry to even care about what line you are getting you also understand that every line produces good and bad. Therefore, the possibility of getting better quality birds IS higher from a particular LINE. The way I see it, I would have a bigger problem with someone buying a show winning pair from me and then passing them off as their own line than them selling offspring under my name.
Because there are too many out there that have no clue. Because there are breeders out there that sell their crap to unsuspecting people who don't know better and while true that they bought such & such line they are still crap.
Because there are people out there that lie. Evidence those that are selling lavender Silkies or hatching eggs. Over half of those are untruths.
I am quicker to read past someone who it touting such & such line because that speaks to bragging that might not hold up.
Because the original line breeder has no control over what happens with the birds they sold.
If you want to get a high dollar then breed birds that are your line and something to be proud of.
I only want to know the lineage so as not to continually add the same genetics. But don't tell me that in the listing, I will ask.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can understand breeders that are upset with others using their name in the sale and promotion of birds. A person's reputation - his/her bloodline is like a brand. And I believe should be respected as a brand. At the very least, if someone is wanting to claim their birds are from a specific line - they should at least visit with that person and receive some kind of permission.
Some won't have a problem, others will (as you can see by the various posts). It's about repecting someone elses name/reputation/brand. my 2 cents
Robin, you bring up some very valid points but they don't apply to the argument I am trying to make. Obviously, if someone is lying or mis-representing birds then that is a problem. It, however, is not at all what I am talking about. It just seems ridiculous to me that people who have no problem taking the extra cash out of my hand when they sell me a bird then want to tell me to keep my mouth shut about where my stock came from otherwise I'll be considered a pathetic little weasel only out to profiteer when I, in turn, want to ask more for the birds I breed because they are better than someone else's birds. If a person needs to start from square one with hatchery quality and breed up from there before they should be allowed to ask a better price then what would the incentive be to buy better quality birds?
Originally Posted by robin416
The oldtimers used to say that a line of birds is not your line until you have bred them for 7 years. In that time you will have screwed them up at least twice and would have had to breed yourself out of it. The problem today is people want a quick fix and quick success. They think by buying good birds from a reputable breeder, that is it. Hatch a bunch, name drop the breeders name when selling and get rich.
The reality is there is a lot of money in show poultry, I know because I put it there. I can sell someone my best birds and in a couple years, they will have bred them different than I. Those that continue on to breed birds even when they are not winning prizes or making big sales are true breeders. Those who merely propagate others birds seldom last past the five year mark. I have always sought to make mine better and cross lines and other crazy thing. How boring is it to just buy birds and breed them without improvement or a goal in mind.
It is acceptable to say, I got my start from Mr. or Ms. Whoever if you actually did. It is not acceptable to namedrop if you did not get the bird directly from this person.
Just my thoughts over the years and this is the reason so many lines were lost because the oldtime breeders sold very few birds and then only to those they thought would improve the breed. These is no money in this hobby, most do it for the love of the breed and stay away from those who are out to make a fast buck.
Now, Matt, this is where I get lost. Why is it that a person is automatically out to make a quick buck by stating the line of birds they are working with? Should you not be proud of the birds you work with? You always hear people suggesting buying the best you can afford but why then?
I will speak from my own experience and tell you that I don't ever make back anywhere what I put into my birds. I DO constantly strive to improve my breed. In fact, I have improved them to the point that the original breeder from whom I purchased my stock bought birds back from me to replace some quality that they had lost. I can assure you that I am not some wing-nut out there just looking to cash in on someone else's name. There were some years I hatched from as few as two or three hens while I was trying to build up my quality and get my flock to where it is now.
It is not just about selling to me but very much so about the satisfaction of me seeing my birds at the point they currently are. Hell, I only show once a year so it is not even about the competition. Now, if I do decide to sell anything I certainly expect to get more than what hatchery stock would sell for because of all of the years of effort put into this line not only by me but also by those I purchased the birds from. I just do not see any problem with me telling people where it is my stock originated from. I also would not expect anyone who bought stock from me to necessarily keep it to themselves either. I do take offense to the statement that anyone claiming a line does so purely out of greed and inability.
I think we're all saying nearly the same thing here. I have no problem with someone using my name honestly. As I mentioned before...I'm flattered. I received a note & a photo from a newer breeder who's raising & winning with some beautiful Calls, some from some birds I sold him 3 years ago. He told me he'd named the pictured bird after me. I never name them, mine just have numbers, but I'm honored. I'd be thrilled if he'd sell her to me!!
What I objected to in my first post was that someone I'd never heard of was advertising her birds as my bloodline & using photos from my website. (They're now locked & can't be copied without my permission ). The other example I gave was someone I refuse to sell to, that was misrepresenting the junk on auctions.
Using photos without permission is irresponsible and, many times, criminal. "Related" birds or not. In this age it isn't hard to take pics and upload them in a span of minutes.