Chicks Dieing Nathalie Ross

[Glenda L Heywood]

Chicks Dieing
Nathalie Ross

I was told that these folks had incubators of
styrofoam and now a large emu incubator converted they
were using. Then they were getting some chicks hatched
but when they live 24 to 48 hrs they gasp and die.

They fed boiled egg yolks and medicated chick starter.
These were from NPIP flocks of OE

Here is my answer on what I do, may help some of
you out there.

Nathalie's Answer

Hey there. I went through this very same problem
myself, and it almost drove me crazy. Thankfully, I
did alot of research and found a solution that worked
for me, so maybe it will work for you. This is a long

post. You might want to print it out so that you can
read it once for the "why's " of my recommendation,
but then just highlight the "how's" so it's not as
complicated.

First, I had the same thing: hens that were laying,
OE's, but when the eggs DID make it to full term, the
babies were disinterested in eating,
or died during hatch. The ones that did make it
didn't live very long.

If you lost eggs during hatch, you'll want to candle
and find out exactly when they're dying out. If it's
near day 14, I'm thinking your situation is exactly
was mine was. Then of course, don't move the eggs
after day 18. Humidity monitoring is going to be very
important, too.

Bill Worrell's method of Dry Incubation (called Dry
Hatching, but it's really not) helped me with chicks
sticking, chicks drowning, etc.

But then I had babies that wouldn't make it past day
14 incubation, or past day 2 after hatch. What I finally found that made all the
difference was a nutritional program concentrating on
making sure that when the hens did lay, the yolks were crammed with nutrition to help the chicks
make it past day 14, to hatch, and then to point of
lay.

First, I would put these birds on either an all
breeder or all layer pellet. I like grains for conditioning birds for show, but there needs
to be a certain type of vitamin-mineral content to
feed to make those nutrients go into the yolks and grains dilute that magic formula.

My breeding nutrition was devised from a combination of the breeding program of a top OE breeder and some of my own additions to make up for my own weak (purchased) strains.

I can't recall - what state are you in? If you have
access to Bluebonnet or CalfManna laying pellets, that will be a good bet for you.
Pellets retain their nutritinal integrity better than
crumbles because there is less surface exposure to air. If you can find either feed, I can tell you why they're great ones.

If not, then try to find a good breeder or pelleted feed that has a quick turnover at the feedstore, again for nutritional integrity. If you have to resort to a combination of game (non med) breeder and laying pellets, that will work too, although the
breeder that I'm referencing only used 16% regular
laying pellets with a certain form of supplementation that I, too, used hat I'll describe below.

I personally used a combination of Bluebonnet game
breeder and Bluebonnet laying pellets to pull out my slump, in ombination with the aforementioned supplementation program.

Then, try giving probiotics once a week to your
breeders about one month before laying through your last collection of eggs. Probiotics cause
the birds to have more beneficial bacteria in their
gut, ensuring that they'll absorb more feed more effeciently. That means that more nutrients go into the bird, and thus into the egg, and into fertility
ability. The good bacteria also produce B vitamins,
important to various functions that will help your hens be better producers as well as breeders.

Now, the trick is to use boosters of the oil soluable
vitamins as a supplement to the feed. Oil soluable vitamins (A, D, ) are usually the first ones to disappear from feeds because of the processing of feeds.

Unfortunately, to avian species, they're also some of
the most important. D plays an important role in the strength of eggshells (thus the resistance to bacterial infection of the fetal chick),

A plays a vital role to the overall health of birds, and E is important to breeding and immunity. The way to best do this is by using cod liver oil alternating
with wheat germ oil. I personally used just the wheat
germ oil in a certain way and had great results.

Twice a week, use 6 ounces of wheat germ oil to a
regular bucket of feed, or 1 full cup to one 5 gallon bucket. When you add the oil, add
some at a time, stir very vigorously til the pellets
are just slightly more shiny than before (if you don't want to measure, which I sure didn't).

Then do the next layer of oil. You'll want to make this batch fresh, and only in a quantity that will be eaten that day because oils go rancid quickly and loose potency. Also, you'll want to look into ground
seaweed (kelp). Bill Worrell of Briarpatch Farms
sells a good quality of the correct stuff (Northern Atlantic kelp, the only kind to use because of its quality and lower iodine content) for a good price.

It doesn't take much, really. I top dressed the oiled feed with the kelp so it didn't fall through to the bottom. One palmful will take care of a 5
gallon bucket generously. Kelp adds micronutrients to
the feed that are missing from the grains, etc, used to make the feed. The birds' bodies need these to make good strong babies.

Now, note - you're feeding your birds to make good
healthy birds, show type birds, but they need more to be baby makers. It's no fault of yours that you haven't done this til now, really it's the fault of feed producers.

Starting babies:
First, you'll find that when you have more correct
nutrition with your breeders, you'll have stronger hatches and none of the helping-out
needed. I was Queen of the Helper Outters until I
changed my nutritional program, then the same birds were producing babies that kicked out of
the eggs and looked for their first meals. I know
that's what you want to see, too.

Additionally, you can use kelp from day one with
babies to give them a good strong boost. I just mixed a pinch of kelp in with one chick-feeder of starter, and sprinkled kelp and crumbles for the one day olds.

If I have a weak chick, I'll wet crumbles and mix in a
generous portion of kelp til the crumbles are just more fluffy and soft but not wet.
(Sprinkling water on top does this). This would help
the very tiny OE chicks to actually swallow the crumbles because they're not so hard, and
they can more easily grip then too. That will get
them eating before day 3, when their absorbed yolk nutrition starts to un out and they start to get weak and "die out".

Also, be sure that their brooder temps are 100%
correct. Chilled OE babies won't eat, they'll just run around and worry and starve. The same
with over hot babies, so keep that brooder at 95
degrees with a cooler spot that they can go to if they need to. I found any variation from
this with the weaker babies caused serious problems.

When you start babies like this, from hen to hatch to
day 4, you'll find you won't have the problems with babies dying. You'll also want to keep them separated from all adults for a good while.
Opinion varies on how long, but I say at least 4 months. I always do my babies first, then my adults, so that the babies don't pick up something that the
adults can handle (but the babies can't) from my
hands.

I think your problem was more due to weak chicks. Chicks that you have to help out rarely make it. If they do, they usually die just when you've got them half way raised up.

Of course, I'm a proponent of absolutely 100% clean
water. The only thing I put in my water is sometimes apple cider vinegar to keep skum out
of the sides, and keep bacteria from growing in there.
Vitamins break down easily in water and leave a soup in which bacteria thrive. Exotic avian breeders have known this for years, but chicken breeders won't
listen.

The vitamin formulas are really the same,
too, so I'm going with what the people with the multi-thousand dollar birds do on this one.
That's where alot of my research has come from in the
first place, then practiced on my own poultry and backed up with extension and other
poultry-related research.

OK, give that a thought, and let me hear what you
think. If you're interested, we can talk more about this, but I think this will get you started. Nathalie

[goosedragon]

Good post Ms. Ross! As always I have a couple of questions/comments.
"The vitamin formulas are really the same, too, so I'm going with
what the people with the multi-thousand dollar birds do on this one.
That's where alot of my research has come from in the first place." Could you clear this up for me, exactly what are you doing about vitamin/mineral supplements? If I am reading your post correctly, you are depending on liquid oils for the vitamins and Kelp for the minerals? Now my neighbors with multi-thousand bird houses (each bird may be worth a buck )use a bagged supplement (the rest of the feed components come in by the truck load) that is inline mixed just before feeding. the vitamin supplement needs to be kept as cool as possible to prevent breakdown of the vitamins. I looked into buying the bagged supplement from where they get their supply but a bag would go stale with my little flock so I worked out a deal where they would sell me a pound at a time (for biosecurity I drop off a cooler by the drive and they place the supplement inside, they won't allow a backyard man on their place!)
This would not be practical in an area where there aren't commercial operations. I agree that if you must depend on those small supplement packs sold by the hatcheries to be mixed with water, you can't leave that water there all day or you will have a foul soup. I have used two sets of waterers,the small ones have the supplement mixed into cold water, the big ones have nothing but clean water. First I remove the big waterers so they must drink from the supplement waters. While nothing but the supplement waterers are in place I feed and clean the the big waterers and refill them with fresh clean water. Finally I remove the supplement water and replace with the big waterers. More work but it does get fresh supplements in and out again before they have time to spoil. As long as I can get the commercial supplement I just top dress the regular feed with oily supplements and mix in. I hope this isn't too confusing.
The second point is the time to keep babies from adults I am a firm beleiver in maternal antibodies passed in the egg that give chicks a immunity to some diseases. I often let parents raise their own offspring. I have no real proof however and of course the big producers never mix generations so there isn't much research on the sublect, so you may be right. ~gd

[CindyS]

Thank you for the post! my January serama hatch was a complete flop, did not have a clue the reason. I had 60% die at 14 days incubation or sooner. The incubation of these eggs were a last minute decision, they were not getting breeder ration, along with being the middle of winter and they were not getting their fresh grass and bugs. After reading your article, im betting the yolks were lacking the proper nutrients

[Evy]

That was another one of Glendas pasted articles from several years ago when kelp was the rage. A good commercial breeder feed should give adults all they need to produce healthy embryos, likewise starterfor chicks. Over supplementing with all these vitamins & additives can be worse than none. Bad hatches can be blamed on any number of things, including incubation errors. There may be something to some of it but I have a problem with feeding chickens & WF things they wouldn't normally choose for themselves, including seaweed & yogurt.
Note: Before GD calls me on it...I do supplement my breeder pellets with a daily handful of dry cat food to make up for the lack of animal protein in the poultry feed that's available to me.

[Pathfinders]

For troubleshooting incubation problems and general info on hatching healthy chicks, see these great websites from Mississippi State University:

http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/hatch.htm

http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/trouble.htm

http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/exthatch.htm

Best,

Laura

[goosedragon]

A good commercial breeder feed should give adults all they need to produce healthy embryos, likewise starterfor chicks. I have a problem with feeding chickens & WF things they wouldn't normally choose for themselves, including seaweed & yogurt.
Note: Before GD calls me on it...I do supplement my breeder pellets with a daily handful of dry cat food to make up for the lack of animal protein in the poultry feed that's available to me.

With the addition of the underlines I pretty much agree with you. However I can not find a breeder feed of any kind here in my area and I have some concerns with the starters available, none formulated for waterfowl. With the increase in grain prices and almost complete absence of animal proteins, what was a good product in the past may have been completely reformulated recently. Even my mainstay SS waterfowl pellets do not have the fish oil/byproducts they used to have. The fact that you do supplement means that you don't really trust the feed producers either. Dried kelp is a good source of micro-minerals.(those trace minerals that may be in short supply where the grain/soy was grown and are never tested for in a formulation) I don't know what a natural bird snacks on its way North to breed (I'll grant you that it isn't likely to be yogurt but they may nibble on some seaweed. Where we really agree is that you can do harm by over supplementing.~gd

[Evy]

Re: Starter feed...I have good luck with Purina medicated Start'n Grow crumbles for both chicks & ducklings. For the wild waterfowl, I also buy Mazuri starter (expensive as h _ _ _) & mix it with the Purina. I have to drive about 30 miles to get Purina products, so I only buy them for the breeding season.

Several people I know use a game bird crumble as a breeder feed simply because of the higher protein level & the fact it usually contains animal protein. I don't, because I can't get it in pellet form.

[Glenda L Heywood]

Kelp is very good for chicks giving the extra care for good feathering
it is very good additive and not out dated
Glenda L Heywood

[threehorses]

Goosedragon wrote: If I am reading your post correctly, you are depending on liquid oils for the vitamins and Kelp for the minerals?"

Actually, you did misread. It's a rather old article (from a post). But let me clarify. My feeding program for my breeders that pulled me out of a dying-at-hatch slump was a good feed with additional supplements. To supplement the ADE, I chose an oil formulation because those vitamins are oil vitamins and degrade more easily in a powdered or water-based form than they do in a well-stored oil formula. The kelp was used for various micronutrients that are missing from a lot of diets of animals on grain/foraged based diets. Well, and ours as well, but that's a different post.

My reference to large poultry houses is that THEY did the research on the diets. However, my post was in the context from which most of us come: small poultry raising operations. It would be wasteful for us to use the big bags of supplements they do or use their feed program. We aren't raising commercial birds nor are we using them the way they do. We should use their knowledge to formulate a feeding program appropriate for smaller flocks used for home egg/meat production, show, hobby, etc. That's all my reference meant: use their knowledge of the nutritional requirements of chickens, but use smaller (and personally I think more effective) customized ways of supplementing. A large poultry house wouldn't find it effective or price smart to use an oily vitamin supplement. A hobbiest can take the time to pour it out from a cool storage container and mix it thoroughly with the feed in minutes. Etc.

So yes - I think you missed my point but I appreciate the dialogue.

On raising chicks with hens, of course - I, too, believe if it's feasible that that's the best way. However, for a lot of people here it's not. We're incubating eggs, etc. In my case, no way would my breeding hens have raised the babies. This could lead into a whole other philosophical discussion (that would never end) about whether or not we should be breeding chickens that can't even raise their own babies. I'm not going there.

I'm sure I missed something; if I did, please point it out and I'll get to it. Thanks, goosedragon, and it's good seeing your name here.

Nathalie

[threehorses]

Oh I forgot to mention - I'm absolutely NOT a fan of the supplement packs provided by hatcheries. No offense to those who are. My reasoning is as follows:

First, by theory, the feed we're feeding is supposed to be complete for the average bird, barring slight aberrations in nutritional needs in individual birds. My supplementation program was meant to make up for specific nutritional issues that I found in breeding birds whose chicks weren't viable and strong at hatch, or conditioning issues for birds intended for show.

For the rest of my flock, I would use a complete feed, probiotics to make sure that the vitamins that the birds produce themselves (usually in the B spectrum) are being made correctly and that all of the nutrition in my complete feed is being used most efficiently, every ounce of nutrition being squeezed out of the food. Then I would probably use kelp because I personally feel that the grain supplies in our nation are coming from insufficient ground due to our farming methods, insufficient in micronutrients and other nutrients that a healthy chicken allowed to free range would have in their diet. That's my base diet, and I believe a well thought out base diet doesn't require vitamin packages. I save those for a very sick bird that needs the whole range of vitamins as well as the electrolytes (for example my geese that were injured).

The problem with packaged powdered vitamins is that the ones that are most easily degraded from foods, the oil based vitamins, just really don't fare much better in a powdered vitamin supplement that ends up in water. ADE are the vitamins found most often to be deficient in a bird and a feeding program, note. If I feel I need to supplement them, I do it with an oil based supplement in hard times, or a very well put together pelleted supplement (less surface for degradation) if I just need a small boost.

The other problem with packaged vitamins is that even the water based ones degrade very easily in water, making a soup that allows for bacterial growth. Why spend the money to have so much go against you before the vitamin even gets in the bird?

Just my 2 cents. And pardon me as I keep posting because I'm replying to these one at a time and am a bit behind. :P

Nathalie

[threehorses]

Thank you for the post! my January serama hatch was a complete flop, did not have a clue the reason. I had 60% die at 14 days incubation or sooner. The incubation of these eggs were a last minute decision, they were not getting breeder ration, along with being the middle of winter and they were not getting their fresh grass and bugs. After reading your article, im betting the yolks were lacking the proper nutrients

I'm betting they were, too, because it's so very easy for us to do that. Hey - I did it for a long time before I finally realized what was going on. The good news is that it's a lesson that you'll use to fix the issue and have some great babies in the future.

A lot of the diets we feed our birds are for egg production - NOT hatching. People tend to forget that, because why remember it really? Most people want to eat the eggs - not hatch them.

So when breeding birds, just like when breeding horses for example, we should look that they have MORE to give to their unborn. It also helps their fertility incidentally.

Be sure also to check humidity to make sure you're not losing too much moisture in the eggs too soon. I had that happen once during a dry spell. The eggs' air sacs should grow at a certain rate, no faster, and no more slow. Hope that helps, too. Good luck, and here's to upcoming success!

Nathalie

[threehorses]

That was another one of Glendas pasted articles from several years ago when kelp was the rage. A good commercial breeder feed should give adults all they need to produce healthy embryos, likewise starterfor chicks. Over supplementing with all these vitamins & additives can be worse than none. Bad hatches can be blamed on any number of things, including incubation errors. There may be something to some of it but I have a problem with feeding chickens & WF things they wouldn't normally choose for themselves, including seaweed & yogurt.
Note: Before GD calls me on it...I do supplement my breeder pellets with a daily handful of dry cat food to make up for the lack of animal protein in the poultry feed that's available to me.

Pardon me, but that article was mine. It's based on a sound foundation that I still use today, when kelp isn't the rage. Actually I had been using kelp for about 15 years before having written that - only in the horse world.

Commercial *breeder* feed yes - should give adults all they need. Likewise starter. For a healthy normal bird. But most people feed laying feed.

And yes, oversupplementing can be worse than none. I agree with most of this post. I'm not sure I like the feel I'm getting from it however. Beg to differ, but please keep personal feelings about a person out of the mix.

As it is, I still stand completely behind my article if it's used *for the purpose intended* <--- a point some seem to have forgotten. It was posted for a breeding situation where breeders are NOT giving eggs that do well. In my case, it was due to a need for more nutrition. And we didn't have an available breeding food that worked in my area. Hope that helps us get back on track.

[threehorses]

I've been thinking about this and I feel the need for a summary.

First, the article that Glenda thankfully posted was to address a specific need (just as the original article was intended): chicks dying at 14 days in egg or at hatch from birds who may have been on a breeder's diet and need more, or those who weren't whose owners didn't have that available to them.

My philosophy on feeding birds is this: complete formulated feed, appropriate to their use (laying, breeding, meat, etc) and clean unadulterated water. Further supplementation shouldn't usually be necessary in a normal, healthy bird with a very good brand of feed. But sometimes it is. If it is, don't cover-all supplement. Determine the need of the bird and shoot for that until it's fixed.

I believe all birds benefit from probiotics. I believe that even the best feed still comes from the average grain crop which isn't the same crop as we had in days where soils had more nutrients in them. The bacteria in the gut of a bird provides vitamins we can't, breakdown of foods we can't, efficiency we can't, and should be kept to its ultimate form. Some birds need this, others don't, all benefit if you choose to include it.

I feel the same about kelp regarding the nutrients in the soil. Some birds need, others don't, all benefit from it in moderation.

What most people don't know about me is that I'm not only a student of poultry nutrition, but have been of equine nutrition for many years before poultry, having completed a course on how to create a feed (balancing out nutrients, etc) based on the need of horses - which applies to all other animals IF you know their nutritional needs. I could create my own feed. I don't. I use complete feeds. I also am a student of hookbill nutrition, which is more relevant to the topic than one would think. Especially for show conditioning.

My articles (usually just posts turned into articles) have always been aimed towards the layman, a person who might live anywhere and might not always have available the most appropriate and perfect choices for their birds as far as foods and medicines, etc, go. When it comes to probiotics, I could recommend that people use avian specific probiotics like I do to make up for the problems that inbreeding these birds has created. Instead, I chose in many cases plain yogurt knowing that most people won't spend 40 dollars for 2 ounces of something, and won't have it available in 24 hours anyway. Chickens don't eat yogurt or probiotics in the wild or in ideal conditions. But I've found that VERY few people keep their chickens in ideal conditions. Nor will they, even if educated. So there are ways to help the lives of their chickens without making them break a budget.

The same with kelp. I'd love for most people to feed the best feed available, have their feedstore order breeding feed, etc. But they won't. So we find ways that are affordable, tested by my own self on my own babies who by now most of you know exactly how I feel about them.... If it's good enough for my own babies, and it works, and it works over years, then I recommend it. If i'd use it on my own babies that I raise from birth, name, and cry when they die - THEN i recommend it. And I recommend it in a way that I think might actually be used, because why advise if no one will use it, yes?

Please remember if something I wrote popped up - I wrote it based on my own experiences. And btw, I don't follow trends. I believe trends are worthless. I believe that a good foundation in nutrition, something that I can use 20 years from now, is the way to go and the only thing I'll ever recommend for others. Every thing I write is specific to a situation being addressed and should be read as such. Please try to realize the context (or ask if it's not obvious) while reading the article. And do so with an open mind, then you can choose not to do it if you wish. But realize that others might find it useful, even lifesaving to some birds, and realize that what works for you might not work for someone else.

Thank you.

[threehorses]

Re: Starter feed...I have good luck with Purina medicated Start'n Grow crumbles for both chicks & ducklings. For the wild waterfowl, I also buy Mazuri starter (expensive as h _ _ _) & mix it with the Purina. I have to drive about 30 miles to get Purina products, so I only buy them for the breeding season.

Several people I know use a game bird crumble as a breeder feed simply because of the higher protein level & the fact it usually contains animal protein. I don't, because I can't get it in pellet form.

I had used the game bird as a breeder feed and it seemed to do pretty well, but yes - it was a full grain form with pellet vitamin package. I would have loved a pelleted version of it.
On mazuri, we had the hardest time getting that around here though oddly the feedstores will have bags of the parrot food sitting on their shelves for ages. Hard to get them to order more stuff. I had used the same start-n-grow for chicks and ducklings and they did ok. I always sweated the ducklings, though. But I never had problems with them in that way. I've heard that the Mazuri starter really is The Stuff. Always wish I would have had a chance to use it. Alas.

Good stuff though, all these foods you've mentioned, but that doesn't surprise me.

[threehorses]

However I can not find a breeder feed of any kind here in my area and I have some concerns with the starters available, none formulated for waterfowl....Even my mainstay SS waterfowl pellets do not have the fish oil/byproducts they used to have.

The having difficulty finding breeder feed - that's the exact problem I had, so I figured others were having it, too. I still haven't figured out what to do about the waterfowl started - would love a better option than what I had. On the fish byproducts, I actually went as far as to buy a bag of fishmeal once, have it ordered. Talk about a stinky bag. LOL! I didn't stick with that very long as it was just too much of a hassle and I was worried about the fishmeal going off. That sure does bring back a smile and a memory though. And yes - it's all soy now, and having had a lot of discussions about soy and avian systems in the parrot world, I'm not so sure I'm a big fan of processed soy products. But hey -what choice do we have? Madcow put a big scare in a lot of people about animal products (they usually have to label as animal byproducts because of inclusion of poultry or other products, and people don't like to NOT know what animal is being used), and soy is cheap. Cheap = king.

[goosedragon]

Darn it! I had written a reply to Nathalie and Evy while I was playing hooky from working on my 1040. when I went to post it I had been logged out and all was lost! I can stay logged in all night with no problems (when I forget to log out at night) but when I am working on a reply I get logged out in about an hour.... ~gd

well I am a man, when all else fails, read the directions I need to check the log me in automatically box to stay logged in for more than a "preset time". I always thought that was a non functioning automatical log in feature. live and learn ~gd