Gabbard Hatchery

[Altair]

I just saw and explored the link from one of the ads. Anyone have any experience with their eggs? I'm looking at sources other than major hatcheries.

http://www.gabbardhatchingeggs.com

[Patrick]

I don't know anything about them other than what they have on their website, which is very attractive. They support the APA, ABA and SPPA, so I appreciate that they're a little bit more sophisticated than the average hatchery. They have some rare breeds and varieties that you won't find many other places. From that respect they're unique. Other than that, what else is it that you hope to receive from them that you won't from a "major" hatchery?

[Altair]

I was reminded of some of the chick culling practices of said large industries and if possible would like to embrace alternatives even for the extra cost. And not only that but I've noticed the long term health of some mass-produced hatchery birds is somewhat deficient - i'd like to start supporting smart breeders for a change hence my inquiries.

[Evy]

Every ''hatchery'' culls chicks, whether it's tossing them in a grinder or pulling off a head. Small ones may cut their losses, if they sex, by sending you all cockerals. Some, like M McM send a ''surprise exotic'' or ''extras for warmth'' which you can almost guarantee will be cockerals.
I'd go with Patricks assesment & give Gabbard a try.

[Neil E. Grassbaugh]

Originally Posted by Evy

Every ''hatchery'' culls chicks, whether it's tossing them in a grinder or pulling off a head. Small ones may cut their losses, if they sex, by sending you all cockerals. Some, like M McM send a ''surprise exotic'' or ''extras for warmth'' which you can almost guarantee will be cockerals.
I'd go with Patricks assesment & give Gabbard a try.

http://www.wattagnet.com/10793.html

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by Altair

I was reminded of some of the chick culling practices of said large industries and if possible would like to embrace alternatives even for the extra cost. And not only that but I've noticed the long term health of some mass-produced hatchery birds is somewhat deficient - i'd like to start supporting smart breeders for a change hence my inquiries.

I appreciate your principles. I'll bite, for now, in the hopes that you're one of the few who can discuss this issue rationally.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gabbard seems to sell only eggs, not chicks. What plan do you have for the extra cockerels? Assuming that you have a use for them, what is the solution for those who don't, or who can't dispose of them? That's the biggest problem that I have with this whole issue. I see so many Back Yard Chicken owners who are devastated by those videos, who own only hens, or maybe one or two cocks. They are difficult to watch, I think, but some of those who are crying loudest about it, haven't taken the time to realize what the solution is, or, more likely, how much it will cost. Then there are the fundamentalists who ignorantly oppose, IMO, scientific advances in such things as cloning or sex determination. Who loses, if we could develop a hen that lays eggs that hatch only pullets, or find a way to determin the sex of the egg during incubation?
Good link, Neil. I don't think that it would be all that costly for the industry to develop a way to gas them prior to maceration. Just one more step in the process, and some added cost, eventually to the consumer. But then we still have to deal with those who want to insist that the carousel and the sorting methods are cruel too.
I hope that I'm not stepping over the line here. Trying to discuss these issues in the industry, and possible solutions, isn't easy without getting into forbidden territory.

[robin416]

I'm not going to touch the thing about culling. As noted it can be an explosive topic.

But one thing I would like to speak to is supporting the small business person. I feel in the long run it could benefit us all if we do business with the smaller business' and not give everything to the big guys.

With that comes the obvious that the business should have excellent bird keeping protocols in place. That they have great customer service in place. That they are a company that we should support.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by robin416

I'm not going to touch the thing about culling. As noted it can be an explosive topic.

But one thing I would like to speak to is supporting the small business person. I feel in the long run it could benefit us all if we do business with the smaller business' and not give everything to the big guys.

With that comes the obvious that the business should have excellent bird keeping protocols in place. That they have great customer service in place. That they are a company that we should support.

Good points. Customer service is key. Anyone who's dealt with one of the other small rare breed nazis, I mean, hatcheries, understands this all too well. It's tough to determin how good or bad a hatchery's bird keeping protocols are, assuming that they even keep their own breeders. Most don't allow visitors for biosecurity reasons, and I don't blame them. Small businesses can be fickle. They come and go. The big guys aren't perfect, but like it or not, some of them are responsible for keeping some of the breeds going, despite the quality, and they've been doing it for many years. Some don't even keep their own breeders, and so are responsible for keeping a lot of smaller farms and breeders in buisness by purchasing the eggs from them.

[Altair]

I admit I don't have the answers to curbing the unwanted males of a lot of domesticated species but I don't like what is done. If we did have successful methods of getting female embryos as Patrick suggested it would be incredible. Case closed. I wish chickens had that crocodilian trait of temperature determining sex, having no gender chromosomes.

My logic has so far come up with:

Reduce demand: buy eggs and meat locally (which is somewhat circular if the birds come from huge hatcheries) and not from major corps. Encourage said corps to keep their layers longer (if they can live that long)

Raising those reject males of applicable breeds for meat on a large scale instead of/or supplementing broilers

There are more reasons which will likely be just as fanciful if not more so but this isn't a crusading post.

And there are ethics of a different kind. I like people who know their animals, study their lines, aim for the better. I want to support those people. Half of my flock, three birds, died from Mareks (they supposedly were vaccinated) and another from some sort of tumor. They were from a large producer. I don't corrolate their problems specifically with origin but it certainly makes me wonder.

Aside from Gabbard, which I certainly may try in the future, I'm very open to other poultry sources.

[Neil E. Grassbaugh]

Originally Posted by Altair

I admit I don't have the answers to curbing the unwanted males of a lot of domesticated species but I don't like what is done. If we did have successful methods of getting female embryos as Patrick suggested it would be incredible. Case closed. I wish chickens had that crocodilian trait of temperature determining sex, having no gender chromosomes.

My logic has so far come up with:

Reduce demand: buy eggs and meat locally (which is somewhat circular if the birds come from huge hatcheries) and not from major corps. How does buying locally reduce demand? What are the people living in Manhattan to do? Encourage said corps to keep their layers longer (if they can live that long) How long do you think that commercial layers are kept? Here is a hint - those that are housed "on the floor" or "cage free" do not last as long as those housed in cages.

Raising those reject males of applicable breeds for meat on a large scale instead of/or supplementing broilers No commercially viable egg laying strains include males that are suitable for meat production.

There are more reasons which will likely be just as fanciful if not more so but this isn't a crusading post.

And there are ethics of a different kind. I like people who know their animals, study their lines, aim for the better. I want to support those people. Half of my flock, three birds, died from Mareks (they supposedly were vaccinated) Probably were, the vaccination does not prevent MD, it just delays the symptoms. And of the 200 or so recognized subvariants of the disease only 20 are included in the vaccine. and another from some sort of tumor. They were from a large producer. I don't corrolate their problems specifically with origin but it certainly makes me wonder.

Aside from Gabbard, which I certainly may try in the future, I'm very open to other poultry sources.

.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Neil E. Grassbaugh

I admit I don't have the answers to curbing the unwanted males of a lot of domesticated species but I don't like what is done. If we did have successful methods of getting female embryos as Patrick suggested it would be incredible. Case closed. I wish chickens had that crocodilian trait of temperature determining sex, having no gender chromosomes.

My logic has so far come up with:

Reduce demand: buy eggs and meat locally (which is somewhat circular if the birds come from huge hatcheries) and not from major corps. How does buying locally reduce demand? It wouldn't support the giant companies.What are the people living in Manhattan to do? No easy answer here, they'll have to do the best they can. Encourage said corps to keep their layers longer (if they can live that long) How long do you think that commercial layers are kept? Here is a hint - those that are housed "on the floor" or "cage free" do not last as long as those housed in cages.Yeah, not long which is part of the problem.

Raising those reject males of applicable breeds for meat on a large scale instead of/or supplementing broilers No commercially viable egg laying strains include males that are suitable for meat production. Yes, egg strains are doubtful but the dual purpose and other meat types (rocks, australorps, reds, etc) are in abundance.

There are more reasons which will likely be just as fanciful if not more so but this isn't a crusading post.

And there are ethics of a different kind. I like people who know their animals, study their lines, aim for the better. I want to support those people. Half of my flock, three birds, died from Mareks (they supposedly were vaccinated) Probably were, the vaccination does not prevent MD, it just delays the symptoms. And of the 200 or so recognized subvariants of the disease only 20 are included in the vaccine. That really is a shame. Thanks for your views, Neil. and another from some sort of tumor. They were from a large producer. I don't corrolate their problems specifically with origin but it certainly makes me wonder.

Aside from Gabbard, which I certainly may try in the future, I'm very open to other poultry sources.

^

[MKG]

Altair, I must admit I admire your idealism. I don't know of any U.S. poultry hatcheries that sell to the general public in lots of 25 or more that are "giant corporations," however. Most are family run businesses. They are what they are because they generate repeat business by providing a satisfactory product and reasonably good service. They can't control what the post office does with the chicks once they are shipped out. By the way, corporation is not a dirty word, and neither is profit. As a tax professional I have worked with many family farm corporations who are operated by fine individuals. Profit is an absolute necessity to be able to stay in business and put food on the table. It seems to me the liberals that control public schools are tending to brainwash this generation into believing free enterprise is a bad thing. That said, I too share your desire to support small business by buying from them - provided they are doing a good job by providing a product that is equal or better in quality than the competition and providing responsive customer service.

[Altair]

Oh I don't think corporations nor profits are dirty words, not a bit! It's when profit is put above decency that I worry. And I'm not insinuating any place or company in particular either, just would rather endorse a different brand of breeders. I'm tired of owning mass-produced animals: fancy rats, chickens, bettas, who do so much worse, though cheaper, than well-bred specimens. I also like talking with said breeders to learn all kinds of intrinsic things I may not otherwise have learned.